01-04-2004 03:20									#31
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I hear they want to make children pay to go to Kindergarten

How can any child afford that? They'll be saddled with debt at the age of 6!

-Jam

	01-04-2004 03:32									#32
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quote: Originally posted by livid imp Umm, yes police states are evil, sorry. Denying the basic freedoms (speech, religion, etc.) of life is evil. But you are right about the potential for a democracy to be evil. They just tend not to be so.

Why is it evil? Furthermore what makes those things basic freedoms? As opposed to let us say economic equality? In fact an excellent case can be made that both absolute freedom of speech and religion is harmful and should be prevented on those grounds. In both cases it allows for the people to be mislead by sophistry causing them to believe in the untrue and the harmful. Furthermore you have not made a connection between ‘life’ and these so called freedoms.

	01-04-2004 03:35									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Commy People will fight for freedom. People will fight for Democracy. People aren't going to fight for a police state. People aren't going to fight for suppression. So, what's Yang going to do if his people don't fight for him? Shoot them? That would be a better life than living under command of Yang underground in some gloomy prison. Or maybe he'll put them in the Punishment Sphere a couple of times. Then, when they do fight, they'll just kill themselves. A police state cannot win over a free society, because the entire point of having a government, the people, won't agree.

A hasty generalization if I’ve ever heard one. Some people will fight for democracy and what is called freedom, others will fight for dictatorship and what is called stability. The point of a government is to manage a state. Democracies are not the only systems which can have the consent of the governed.

	01-04-2004 03:36									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski But then Plato goes on to describe how a perfect educational system could be devised in order that his Republic should function -Jam

Indeed. To quote Plato: “The only true reformer is he who makes his fellow citizens better men.”

	01-04-2004 03:40									#35
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Voltaire - I just remembered why I liked you in the first place

Compare the points we made in this thread.

See?

-Jam

	01-04-2004 03:59									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Voltaire - I just remembered why I liked you in the first place Compare the points we made in this thread. See? -Jam

We're in agreement quite often it seems.

	01-04-2004 04:00									#37
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But as you've said yourslef Voltaire, not all people have the faculty of reason

	01-04-2004 04:07									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar But as you've said yourslef Voltaire, not all people have the faculty of reason

Then I should withdraw that statement if I did say it. To be human is to have reason, but it depends on how well the faculty of reason is developed and what its potential for development is (for not all are equally capable).

	01-04-2004 04:08									#39
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OK, let's not play semantics again You know that I know what you meant.

	01-04-2004 04:47									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Who defines evil? Westerners? Americans? God? Who defines basic freedoms? Westerners? Americans? God?Evil and Freedom are just "nonsense words" that have no place in a logical debate, because everyone has a different idea of the values contained in the strings "Evil" or "Freedom" -Jam

Sig material.

	01-04-2004 04:51									#41
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This thread is laced with ethnocentrism.

	01-04-2004 05:23									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Voltaire If we can find the right individual to rule then it is best to give them power to affect change for the better.

This sounds as the people will have to blindly believe in the capabilities of such a man, thus in effect becoming more of a fundamentalist nation. IMO their is no difference between believe in a 'higher being' or a mere person. Both can achieve mythical properties by its followers.

	01-04-2004 05:40									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski The specific case that [Evil = pathologically disturbed and/or selfish] is proven to exist only from your vision of the atomic facts that constitute the individual perceptions your brain claims to receive. That is is equally possible that in another specific case that [Evil = cold fish and chips] only goes as yet another example that one should not, and cannot attempt to construct absolute cases from specific cases. Basically you argue that [A=B because C] where A is subjective, B is a complex object, and C is an string of atomic facts. I don't see how you intend to balance this equasion. -Jam

This would be that transcendentalism BS I mentioned earlier. I fully understand what you are saying, and yes, it is technically correct. But it has no bearing outside of philosophical theory.

quote: Originally posted by Voltaire Why is it evil? Furthermore what makes those things basic freedoms? As opposed to let us say economic equality?

Now you are getting into another level of the discussion. Every two-bit sh!tbag is entitled to his opinion(even me ), but you have earn your money. You are comparing apples to oranges.

quote: In fact an excellent case can be made that both absolute freedom of speech and religion is harmful and should be prevented on those grounds. In both cases it allows for the people to be mislead by sophistry causing them to believe in the untrue and the harmful.

I did originally say 'when the speech is not harmful'. It might have been in the other thread this got started in.

Jam, Volt....
Look guys I can play the amoral philosopher too. I've read the books. I understand your points. But this is the real world with real consequences too our actions. If you really believe that evil is only in the eye of the beholder, then you wont mind if someone rapes your mother or kills your friends. I've read many of your posts and I'm pretty sure you are smarter than that.
I don't want to war with you guys though as I am here primarily to hone my SMAC skills not debate philosophy.

	01-04-2004 05:44									#44
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quote: Originally posted by GeoModder This sounds as the people will have to blindly believe in the capabilities of such a man, thus in effect becoming more of a fundamentalist nation. IMO their is no difference between believe in a 'higher being' or a mere person. Both can achieve mythical properties by its followers.

I should not think so, such a person would actually have to have the capacity to govern in order for the system to function.

	01-04-2004 05:49									#45
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quote: Originally posted by livid imp Now you are getting into another level of the discussion. Every two-bit sh!tbag is entitled to his opinion(even me ), but you have earn your money. You are comparing apples to oranges.

And you're avoiding my questions.

quote: Originally posted by livid imp I did originally say 'when the speech is not harmful'. It might have been in the other thread this got started in.

Fair enough. But where is it necessarily stated that a despotism will prevent such things when not harmful? Liberty and despotism are not incompatible. Liberty and democracy do not mean the same thing.

quote: Originally posted by livid imp Jam, Volt.... Look guys I can play the amoral philosopher too. I've read the books. I understand your points. But this is the real world with real consequences too our actions. If you really believe that evil is only in the eye of the beholder, then you wont mind if someone rapes your mother or kills your friends. I've read many of your posts and I'm pretty sure you are smarter than that. I don't want to war with you guys though as I am here primarily to hone my SMAC skills not debate philosophy.

I merely ask that you defend your 'real world' presuppositions. You cannot simply appeal to so called common sense and expect it to be accepted, for the so called common sense itself may be wrong. These matters need to be examined in their fullest. Every person is entitled to an opinion if and only if that opinion is justified, and not otherwise.

You also presuppose that merely because we raise questions as to the premises you brought up that we reject morality altogether. It just seems as though my account of objective morality differs from yous.

	01-04-2004 05:49									#46
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I think frontier politics will win out in the end.

Just think about it. PK vs Hive vs Believe vs... everybody else? C'mon, that's not even trying!

	01-04-2004 05:50									#47
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Well, one thing is for sure: handling the delicate balance of the ecosystems requires careful deliberation instead of blind aggression and fanaticism, so there goes the Believers. As far as democracies go, they are great once they get going, but getting a democracy off the ground is historically shaky business, and having an unforgiving planet and a couple of ultra-agressive psyco-maniacs to deal with next door would make it well nigh impossible to get a democracy going, so I'm afraid the only hope we have is with Yang.

But hey, on the bright side, we could always find entertainment in a Hive society at the local Holo-theatre. I hear The Hive 16 Holo-theatre is having a 7:00 showing of "Raiders of the Lost Monolith". Although I myself prefer the sequel, "Zakharov Jones and the Punishment Sphere of Doom".

	01-04-2004 08:40									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski I beleive you are thinking of anarchocommunism

I'm thinking of Marx.

EDIT: Are you thinking of anarchosyndicalism (dominance of society by labour movements/"property is theft")?

	01-04-2004 08:42									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski You said that. -Jam

When did you get allowed to start picking on people for spam?

	01-04-2004 08:42									#50
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You know, I'm finding that there are more and more trolls in the AC-General forum in the past couple of weeks now.

	01-04-2004 08:45									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Evil and Freedom are just "nonsense words" that have no place in a logical debate, because everyone has a different idea of the values contained in the strings "Evil" or "Freedom"

Not nonsense, per se, but just so loaded as to be irrelevant in most comparisons. "Evil" for an arch-Statist is "Good" for a radical Marxist Socialist.

If people are not to preface their value judgements with a break-down of what their value system is then we are not going to get anywhere.

Not that we'll get anywhere anyway...

	01-04-2004 08:48									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Commy Planned economies are based on communism. You can do a police state too, or a democracy, but planned is communism. Hitler did do a planned economy and a police state, that is correct. His government, however, was a fascism. He promised his people of a perfect society, modernized away from religion, to return to the fomer "glory" of Germany. Fascism is a socialist state that uses hopes of a bright future and strict police to enforce its will. Yang is not a communist, he is a fascist. He has a planned economy (like communism, OR part of fascism) and uses police forces to uphold his will of bringing Utopia. And, alas, we therefore can conclude that undoubtly that arguement here is:

That's errant nonsense. Under Marxist Communism there is no centre to do the planning. Means of Production are the property of the individual workers who work with them. It defies the very concept of centralised planning (and probably is a really stupid way of organising an economy... but hey, that is what Marx said...

	01-04-2004 08:53									#53
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quote: Originally posted by livid imp Look guys I can play the amoral philosopher too.

Amoral philosopher? I'm a moral philosopher, and I think that Yang is too. I just think that his concept of "morality" is vastly different from existing concepts. Jesus puts forward a system of morality; so does Machiavelli.

Do I think that Yang is "right", who bloody knows, I have never read any philosophy by anyone called Sheng-ji Yang.

I have to stop having these kinds of conversations on my spare time...

	01-04-2004 08:55									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Frankychan You know, I'm finding that there are more and more trolls in the AC-General forum in the past couple of weeks now.

"Trolls" are another one of those value-judgements I was talking about... one man's troll is another man's treasure...

	01-04-2004 20:45									#55
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"Who defines evil? Westerners? Americans? God? Who defines basic freedoms? Westerners? Americans? God?Evil and Freedom are just "nonsense words" that have no place in a logical debate, because everyone has a different idea of the values contained in the strings "Evil" or "Freedom"

-Jam



Words are used to represent ideas, to an extent every word has a differnt meaning for every individual. The words Evil, Freedom ect ect ofcorse differ from culture to culture. The only universal is that "Evil" is a label for actions that are considered unacceptable to the group. A lot of misilanious things tend to fall under their but a few basics tend to under it such as excessive use of power, hoarding of resorces, physical harm to large numbers of individuals. Even a troop of Chimpanzzes will react with colective punishment towards an individual who comits such acts. Thus its rather obvious that our aversion to the core acts of "Evil" are an evolutionary trait designed to foster group cohesion by simple preservation of the groups members and their well being.

Ofcorse their is much more to it then that as society always add layers to the foudation nature provides. Religions interprit various acts or inactions to be Evil and add them to the list. Most notibly things that would be considered "Evil" when done to your own group members is not considered Evil when done to a differnt group, especialy when your group is in competition with them. These kinds of double standards are everyware and further demonstrate my point.

Our definition of Evil is constantly Evolving too and has been for all of recorded history. The typical senario involves some visionary individual comeing up with some new idea and telling everyone else about it. Usualy the idea involves stoping some activity that has been going on and redefining said activity as "Evil". Their is usualy some segment of the population that whole hartedly agrees because the activity was detrimental to them, another group oposes it because the activity is good for them (usaly their the leadership as only leaders are alowed to conduct activities that benefit themselves at the expense of other group members). A long and difficult philisophical strugle commences and the person who originated the idea is usualy killed (under the justification that the person was comitting Evil by bringing about unrest in society, and leaders are expected to punish "Evil" actions after all) Finaly some kind of resolution is reached and all members are forced to adhear to the new protocal which will either be an inclusion of the new idea into the fabric of their Morality or conversly if the idea fails the belife in or spreading of the idea will be considered an Evil act. That should sum up just about every ideological struggle since the dawn of man kind.

	01-04-2004 22:34									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Voltaire And you're avoiding my questions.

Let me start off by saying I do admire your (and Jam's) demands for proof. Rationalization and discussion are my religion and it is always nice to see others that are practicing members.

I understand the morality is subjective argument.
I'm not avoiding your questions out of lack of a response. I have had this discussion a hundred times (back in the Usenet days) and shame on me for allowing myself to get dragged back into it Usenet used to consume even more of my life than this game does.
Ten years ago I was on your side of the fence making the same arguments. I know I can not persuade you, so I am not going to bother. You will just have to figure it out on your own. Sometimes the world is more simple than the philosophy books let on.

Go ahead and put in the last word if you must....

	01-04-2004 23:57									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Democracy is the evil, the tyranny of the stupid majority. An enlightened ruler wlil always provide a for a better state than the masses will because the masses are inheritly uneducated. Plato

I like the idea of democracy better. The problem is, as Plato said, leaders take advantage of the people. As I said before, there is nothing wrong with any type of government. The problem is the person leading it. Yang has some good and some bad ideals. He is a very good leader, and probably could lead a society better than any other faction leader. But as a person, I just don't like him. It's not the police state that bothers me, it's Yang.

	02-04-2004 00:07									#58
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I think I'm going to have to end with Jamski, at least, I think it was he who said it (please correct me if I'm wrong). Really, the best government for a society is Anarchy or Frontier. Then people can do whatever they want. They don't have to listen to some leader trying to brain wash them. They still have their freedom, and can make their own decisions based on their integrity. Yeah, maybe criminals will take advantage of the lack of law enforcement, but, hey, look at Africa. A lot of small towns in poorer parts of Africa have never even seen their leader. They have no real government. They listen to elders, more experienced people, make their decision after hearing ALL the information, and things proceed nicely. They may not have TVs and X-box. They may not have anything but clothes. They may starve every day. But it is they who are happy. Not America with its democracy. Not China with its communism. Not Hitler leading a fascism. It is some small backwater town that can lead the world into creating a more perfect society.

	02-04-2004 00:21									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Commy I like the idea of democracy better. The problem is, as Plato said, leaders take advantage of the people. As I said before, there is nothing wrong with any type of government. The problem is the person leading it. Yang has some good and some bad ideals. He is a very good leader, and probably could lead a society better than any other faction leader. But as a person, I just don't like him. It's not the police state that bothers me, it's Yang.

So? If, by your own admission, he could lead society "better than any other faction leader" then thats what we need. We don't need someone whos nice and who you'd invite over for a cup tea.

quote: It is some small backwater town that can lead the world into creating a more perfect society.

Anarchy is just like direct democracy: It cannot be applied on a larger scale.
If the governments of the world collapsed there would be *incredible* chaos as military forces fight for control, criminals loot places unchecked, people panic, etc etc ETC....