31-03-2004 11:11									#1
	Politics: What will rule Chiron? Increase the size of your Attachments

Because the threads I have posted, and a couple I haven't, have brought up a big discussion between democracy and communism, I have made this new thread entirely devoted to just that. Open political debates, regarding any forms of government, particulary these, are allowed. However, please do not bring discussions on Republicans, Democrats, and Presidential Campaigns into this. And please, since I know a lot of People have, lets say, to put it lightly, negative opinions about Yang, Miriam, and Lal, well, please don't bring that into here later. I believe that would be quite a few threads on its own.

Lets say three factions dominate Chiron:
--The Peacekeepers plan to turn the planet into a free society
--The Hive prefers to control the Planet with a strict police state
--The Believers plan to uphold a society that praises god, believing Chiron is the promised land, and the fanatic forces with support a fundalmentalist society

Do not look at the factions' advantages, solely on the idealogies. Who will win? Will the Fanatic Fundalmentalists conquer the planet? Perhaps the strict athiest society of the Hive will allow no revolt among citizens, and will modernize society away from religion. Or will the people rebel against suppression, and take towards the promises of freedom and decision in democracy? Please vote, and support your answer with a post.

	31-03-2004 11:16									#2
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I believe (and I already know who is going to disagree) that democracy will hold out. I am not going to say why, because I already know who is going to criticize what I say. I do appreciate the Criticism, as it helps me learn more. But I feel that this time I will criticize and agree with what other people have to say first.

	31-03-2004 11:40									#3
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The Hive and the Believers will remain.
The Hive because its a massive police state.
The Believers because even after the last base is taken they will still continue to fight on.

The Peacekeepers would be too bogged down by internal politics and wouildn't be able to defend against either the Believers or the Hive.

I'll vote for the Hive.

	31-03-2004 12:36									#4
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Where are all the other options?

Where is Communism/Planned?

Where is Fascism/Power?

Where is Green?

This poll = teh suxx0rs

-Jam

	31-03-2004 12:40									#5
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Their is a major distinction between Comunism (in its pure ideological form) and a Police State.

A police state is simply one in which the goverment is keeping all of its citizens under constant servalance for any sign of oposition to the current regim and takes "action" when ever it finds said decent. Needless to say the people have no non-violent way to change their leadership.

Comunism in its pure ideological form is a combined economic and polictical system. The economics are ultra socialist to the point that everything an individual produces is taxed by the state and then all of his needs are provided by the state. The political half was supposed to be a bottom up system inwhich the "goverment" as an entity would eventualy cease to exist as something differnt then "the people". The process used in every Comunist country though was to incressingly centralize power under the guise that this central power would expand to encoumpase everyone in the desision making process. Ofcorse it didn't work out that way and real world comunism became sunonimous with Dictatorship and Olagarcy.

When the experimental social transformation know as comunism was tried in the real world It didn't help that neither Russia or China had ever had any kind of Democratic tradition, they have always been places ware a few elites rule over masses of pesants and neither comunism nor its fall or decline has changed that in either country. Thus the formation of Dictatorships was by far the likliest outcome. By contrast extream Socialism has worked quite well in Wester Europe which had already developed a Democratic Ttrandition. Even the United States which is by far the least socialist western country is undeniably far more socialst then it was a hundred years ago.

Despite all its trials and tribulation (like being responsible for near 100 Million deaths in the last century) Comunism has been the most profound and significant Ideology of the last Century, the lifestyle of ever person on earth has been affected by it. It would not be inapropriate to call the 19th Century the Capitalist Century, and the 20th the Communist Century. It remains to be seen what the 21st will be, Its my personal hope that it will be one of Democratic Socialism.

	31-03-2004 14:56									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Where is Communism/Planned?

Communism is planned how exactly? Who does the planning? The state?

	31-03-2004 14:58									#7
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Impaler, are we reading the same Marx? I am confused.

P.S. I agree about the Democratic Socialism though
New Zealand is quite DS.

Last edited by Trithemius on 31-03-2004 at 15:07

	31-03-2004 15:32									#8
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quote: Communism is planned how exactly? Who does the planning? The state?

Umm... yes :hmm: Who else?

-Jam

	31-03-2004 16:31									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Umm... yes :hmm: Who else?

THERE IS NO STATE IN COMMUNISM!

	31-03-2004 16:50									#10
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I agree that the Human Hvie has the fortitude to survive life on Chiron longer than the U.N. Peacekeepers.

As for Miriam's psycho-babble, blind faith can be a very powerful and dangerous thing.

	31-03-2004 20:22									#11
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quote: THERE IS NO STATE IN COMMUNISM

I beleive you are thinking of anarchocommunism

-Jam

	31-03-2004 20:47									#12
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A lot of you have mentioned that communism and a police state are not the same. This is true, but we are assuming that the Hive is doing planned and a police state, which ultimately means, Yang is doing communism. So please, no arguements about police states vs. communism. They are different, we all know that. But the Hive is doing both, so for all intensive purposes, communism and police state may be used interchangebly in this thread, and using them will refer to the Hive.

	31-03-2004 21:08									#13
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Planned + Police State != Communism

Stalin's UdSSR was a Planned Police State, and was the "model" for the Hive in some ways, and could never be considered "Communist"

Hitler's Germany was a Planned Police State, and was surely not communist.

What cloud did you fall off

-Jam

	31-03-2004 21:11									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Commy Communism, and to a certain extent, tyrrany is not insane. Yang is insane, not socialism.

You said that.

-Jam

	31-03-2004 21:14									#15
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On what basis does the harsh judgment of Yang come from? A police state it in of itself is not evil, and nor is democracy in it of itself on some pedestal of goodness by which all other government systems are to be judged by.

	31-03-2004 21:22									#16
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To the question of what will rule Chiron it seems likely that it would come under the rule of an autocracy or despotism for these systems are more amiable at adaptation and survival in hostile circumstances than the democratic system given that they are more efficient. But the more pertinent question perhaps remains what ought to rule Chiron? Here still I will maintain that it ought to be a police state, for the greatest good can be done under in it with a good leadership, whereas democracy, though moderating the evils of man also moderates the good. If we can find the right individual to rule then it is best to give them power to affect change for the better.

	31-03-2004 21:56									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Voltaire On what basis does the harsh judgment of Yang come from? A police state it in of itself is not evil, and nor is democracy in it of itself on some pedestal of goodness by which all other government systems are to be judged by.

His love for punishment spheres probably didn't help.

	31-03-2004 22:30									#18
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But punishment spheres are most used by the so-called-free factions so they can warmonger under FM

-Jam

	31-03-2004 22:34									#19
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Self-defend.
Pre-emptively.

	31-03-2004 22:54									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Voltaire On what basis does the harsh judgment of Yang come from? A police state it in of itself is not evil, and nor is democracy in it of itself on some pedestal of goodness by which all other government systems are to be judged by.

Umm, yes police states are evil, sorry. Denying the basic freedoms (speech, religion, etc.) of life is evil.

But you are right about the potential for a democracy to be evil. They just tend not to be so.


edited a spelling error

	31-03-2004 22:59									#21
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quote: Denying the basic freedoms (speech, religon, etc.) of life is evil.

Who defines evil? Westerners? Americans? God? Who defines basic freedoms? Westerners? Americans? God?

Evil and Freedom are just "nonsense words" that have no place in a logical debate, because everyone has a different idea of the values contained in the strings "Evil" or "Freedom"

-Jam

	31-03-2004 23:03									#22
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Good point.

	01-04-2004 00:02									#23
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Morgan will win, because nothing can defeat the Free Market! Shortly thereafter, Planet will win, and the surface of Chiron will be scoured clean by 10,000,000,000 Locusts of Chiron.

	01-04-2004 00:26									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Who defines evil? Westerners? Americans? God? Who defines basic freedoms? Westerners? Americans? God? Evil and Freedom are just "nonsense words" that have no place in a logical debate, because everyone has a different idea of the values contained in the strings "Evil" or "Freedom" -Jam

Yes, "evil" is a comic book term. When I hear Pres. Bush use the term evil, I can't help but laugh, imagining him in a blue tights and a red cape. But can you not say that murder is not evil? Rape is not evil? Are we really supposed to believe that it is ok to rape someone because the rapist believes it to be so? Come on back down to Earth. Words represent meaning. There is such thing as evil (read as pathologically, destructively selfish if you wish).
And yes, anything resembling thought control is evil too. Speech and religious belief, which itself is not destructive, is sacrosanct. I don't know how you could argue otherwise without resorting to transcendentalism BS.

	01-04-2004 01:44									#25
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The specific case that [Evil = pathologically disturbed and/or selfish] is proven to exist only from your vision of the atomic facts that constitute the individual perceptions your brain claims to receive. That is is equally possible that in another specific case that [Evil = cold fish and chips] only goes as yet another example that one should not, and cannot attempt to construct absolute cases from specific cases.

Basically you argue that [A=B because C] where A is subjective, B is a complex object, and C is an string of atomic facts. I don't see how you intend to balance this equasion.

-Jam

	01-04-2004 02:31									#26
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People will fight for freedom. People will fight for Democracy. People aren't going to fight for a police state. People aren't going to fight for suppression. So, what's Yang going to do if his people don't fight for him? Shoot them? That would be a better life than living under command of Yang underground in some gloomy prison. Or maybe he'll put them in the Punishment Sphere a couple of times. Then, when they do fight, they'll just kill themselves. A police state cannot win over a free society, because the entire point of having a government, the people, won't agree.

Oh, and Jamski, some little information:

Planned economies are based on communism. You can do a police state too, or a democracy, but planned is communism. Hitler did do a planned economy and a police state, that is correct. His government, however, was a fascism. He promised his people of a perfect society, modernized away from religion, to return to the fomer "glory" of Germany. Fascism is a socialist state that uses hopes of a bright future and strict police to enforce its will. Yang is not a communist, he is a fascist. He has a planned economy (like communism, OR part of fascism) and uses police forces to uphold his will of bringing Utopia. And, alas, we therefore can conclude that undoubtly that arguement here is:

Will people more likely fight for:
--Their freedom
--A bright future of Utopia
--Their God and religion

	01-04-2004 02:41									#27
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quote: People will fight for freedom. People will fight for Democracy. People aren't going to fight for a police state.

Historical (anecdotal) evidence points at Stalin's UdSSR, quite probably the best example of a Police State we have seen, winning the largest war we have seen to date, against more highly trained and technologically superior opponents.

It seems people will fight for whatever state they happen to have.

quote: Yang is not a communist, he is a fascist.

Yang is neither. He only has an abversion to Democracy, which doesn't imply a tendency to any other SE choice. It is quite possible to play a Fundy/FM/Wealth Yang, and what does that make him?

People forget that Napoleon was both a liberal, a republican and a democrat, but still became an absolute dictator to protect against the return of the European monarchy, considered by him to be worse dictatorships.

-Jam

	01-04-2004 02:52									#28
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Democracy is the evil, the tyranny of the stupid majority.
An enlightened ruler wlil always provide a for a better state than the masses will because the masses are inheritly uneducated.

Plato

	01-04-2004 02:57									#29
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But then Plato goes on to describe how a perfect educational system could be devised in order that his Republic should function

-Jam

	01-04-2004 03:05									#30
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An education system cannot survive in cultures where education is looked down upon
Come now Jamjam....I think we both know the future of education in America