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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:35
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Without Stalin, thee would have been no Nazi Germany, so the answer is an unqualified yes. It was Stalin who ordered the insane ultraleft policy of the Communists in Germany to ignore the Nazis and concentrate on defeating the "Social Fascists," i.e., the Socialists. This infighting among what should have been a united front against fascism allowed it to grow unchecked, while at the same time disgusting people with the left. The Communists considered Hitler a flash in the pan saying, First Hitler, then us, assuming he would so badly botch things up there'd be a revolution.
Arian brings up a good point, if not Stalin, who? To that I would ad, when? If Trotsky had won the struggle for power in the 1920s, it is highly unlikly that the Nazis would have come to power in Germany. Depending on when he won that struggle, it might have effected Europe even more greatly. Imagine if the USSR had backed the British General Strike. Revoluition was not out of the question in Britain in 1926. There was also a general strike in France in 1936, which had the French Communists not pulled th rug out from under it, may have been able to assume power.
Had, in spite of the Communists best efforts under Tortsky, not been able to stop Hitler, Hitler may have been confronted with Communists on both sides, who would more likely have resisted the Rhineland's remilitarization, the Anschuss, the Munich Pact, etc.
Assuming that Hitler rose to power and that Communists did not take power in Britain and France, a Trotskyist USSR would have lent much more effort to defeating the Fascists in Spain and supporting a revolution there. Spain was th first major military victory for the Germans and Italians. Had they been defeated there, they may have been more cautious about starting a war.
Trotsky would never have signed the Hitler-"Trotsky" Pact, partitioning Poland and having a non-aggression alliance. Hitler would have had to worry about a Soviet intervention on behalf of the Poles, raising the specter of Red Poland on Germany's borders.
Trtosky would not have purged the military and was also militarily intelligent. He would not have made the iditotic mistakes that Stalin made in defense of the USSR.
On the other hand, Trotsky believed in a more gradual industrialization policy nor in smashing the Kulaks. An anticommunist fifth column could easily have aided the Nazis in the Ukraine.
Assuming that Trotsky was still exiled, but that Stalin was not able to committ vote fraud to defeat Kirov, we would be in unknown territory. Kirov was an excellent politician and bureaucrat. Let us assume he was like Kruschev, but two decades earlier. He still would have pushed for strong industrialization of the USSR. He did not, however, exhibit the paranoia of Stalin. The Kulaks may not have ben destroyed, various Soviet leaders may not have been executed in show trials (Bukharin, Kamenev, Zinoviev, etc.) Tortsky may not have been killed in exile.
Kirov may well have signed a Hitler-Kirov pact, but would he have helped rearm Germany? I doubt he'd destroy the military, and he was not so meglomaniacal that he'd ignore military advice.
In either case, Trotsky or Kirov, it is likly that the USSR would have faired much better.
Gangrolf, Lenin surrendered because he had no choice. The army had ceased to exist. The USSR tried to simply declare peace on the Germans in February (the was Trotsky's idea), but after a few weeks, Germany invaded. The Russians had no choice but to accept either total German occupation or Germany's terms at Bret-Litovsk.
Trotsky was not Lenin's boy. Trotsky was Trotsky's boy. He and Lenin were allies. Neither was subservient to the other.
Last edited by chegitz guevara on 31-03-2004 at 21:20
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:35
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as with all alt history, you need a Point of departure, and a timeline.
Lets leave out timelines in which an alt Soviet Leader causes revolution in the west - i dont think thats close to what the first poster was getting at. and it opens up too many butterfly effects - if Trotskyt in this ATL supports revolution in say France, does that give us a fascist France? Fighting a Social Democrat Germany? Does a Socialist France, or Germany, remain friendly with the USSR, or do we get something like the Sino soviet split, and when. Its way to complex.
Lets assume a more moderate alt-Stalin - no forced draft industrialization. Should have better relations with the West though - both cause hes less frightening, and cause without such large scale heavy industry he HAS to. So the diplomacy of the thirties plays out very differently, and possibly there is no WW2.
Its very difficult to see anyone maintaining Stalins diplomatic posture 1933-1939 without the heavy industry to back it up.
Or lets try a different POD. Stalin is deposed at the time of the show trials, in 1936, by some "old Bolsheviks" The worst of the atrocities associated with forced draft industrialization are done, so they can wipe their hands. They will keep some Gulags, (these are nasty guys) but will gradually reduce it, though probably not as fast as Khruschev. Most importantly they wont purge the army. USSR should do better against Finland, assuming that still happens. Germany may still invade - i think it was more racist theory than performance that caused the underestimation of the USSR - after all one could at the time understand that they were recovering from the purges. Presumably this will cause a better defense in summer of '41, though its not clear if some of the mistakes will not happen anyway.
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Bosh
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Taehan Mingook
Jan 1970
time: 00:35
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quote:
Gangrolf, Lenin surrendered because he had no choice. The army had ceased to exist. The USSR tried to simply declare peace on the Germans in February (the was Trotsky's idea), but after a few weeks, Germany invaded. |
And an amazingly stupid idea that was too, doesn't give me much confidence in Trotsky being able to wend his way through 1930's diplomacy effectively.
Last edited by Bosh on 01-04-2004 at 07:03
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Boshko
And an amazingly stupid idea that was too, doesn't give me much confidence in Trotsky being able to wend his way through 1930's diplomacy effectively. |
First off, the German terms were horrendous (the surrender of Poland, Ukraine, and the Baltic states) to the Germans. This meant, among other things, betraying the comrades in the Baltics and the Ukraine, where an independent Ukrainian Red state had been set up. It also meant being seen as German agents in the eyes of the workers around the world (as Gangerolf just argued) and damaging the cause of international socialism. Finally, they hoped the longer they stalled, the greater the chance of a German revolution.
At first, the Germans were flummoxed. The Bolsheviks simply declared the war over and walked away. The Germans were like, you can't do that, and after a month of trying to figure out what to do, they invaded. But this showed the world that the Bolsheviks weren't simply German puppets, that they had tried to do something besides surrender. Declaring peace was a political move, and not something they seriously believed would work.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:35
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quote:
Originally posted by DataAeolus
I'm sure that USSR would have fared better since Stalin purged the military of its brightest and best officers. |
BULLSHIT.
Brightest and best officers, my ass. Who were these brilliant officers you are talking about?
Tukhachevsky perhaps? The moron who agitated for universal guns (infanry/anti-tank/anti-aircraft gun in a single package), who agitated for warfare without reserves, who is famous for creation of armada of absolutely idiotic tanks like slow, unreliable, poorly armored, but heavy T-35 monsters with 5 turrets, their smaller version T-28 (three turrets), fast tanks of BT series that could travel up to 80 kmph, but almost had no armor- the shitload of crap that Germans destroyed within first months of war easily. The same with planes. And it would be the same with artillery had he stayed in charge a bit longer. Famous Soviet engineer - Grabin, the author of the most successful Soviet gun designs, including 76mm divisional gun, said about Tukhachevsky- "another ten years of his rule, and he would destroy our artillery completely".
Tukhachevsky is not famous for his victories (simply because he did not achieve any), but for his f*ck-up during 1920-1921 Russian-Polish war, which cost Soviets victory, his insane views on future warfare (like warfare without reserves), and his f*ck-ups with armaments he ordered for Red Army.
Anyone who thinks that he was one of the brightest and best Red Army's officers, really needs to read something about this person first. This "brillant", my ass, strategist din't have any military education and started as ensign in Tsarist's army and remained ensign all his life, regardless he had a rank of feildmarshal and called himself a genius and "Red marshal". He was just an incompetent ensign and a traitor of course.
Who else? Bluher? This alkoholic who completely buried the discipline in Far East military district?
Who were these brilliant officers you are talking about?
Names please?
quote:
Russians, based on my observations throughout their history, have been a very resilent country and they seems to be willing to do whatever it takes to ensure their Motherland's survival. Human waves, sorched-earth tactics, and so on. |
Yeah, right. Human waves, scorched-earth, Russian hordes, etc. etc. etc...
... ****...
... to your knowledge:
1) In 1941 Germans forces outnumbered Soviet forces located on western front. (Hordes argument).
2) When Germans retreated they usually left only ruins. (Scorched-earth tactics argument).
3) It was Germans who first started to use special punishing compaies behind main troop faormations, to prevent non-sunctioned retreating.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Hurricane
Without somebody as ruthless and crazy as Stalin, |
Stalin wasn't crazy.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Giancarlo
Stalin virtually decimated much of the high military campaign taking out many experienced officers. He was left with bozos (Zhukov) who didn't know how to operate a military campaign effectively. Running groups of men against MG-42 fire isn't effective. You get morons like Zhukov running campaigns...
"For Zhukov, it won him accalades from Stalin who had so badly purged his military that their morale was so low and leadership so bad that they couldn’t even defeat the tiny population of Finland prior to the German invasion of Russia. In January 1941, Stalin appointed Zhukov to be chief of the general staff. Zhukov was neither qualified nor interested in the work. In fact, Stalin considered him too out-spoken and dismissed him down to the Stavka on a committee in charge of strategic planning."
"Throughout the winter, Zhukov’s true military prowess was revealed. Zhukov was a man who cared little to nothing for his men nor casualty counts. Like the Japanese, he ordered massed front-wide attacks dis-interested in losses. Unlike the Japanese though, his men did not have the culture nor morale for it. It was a meat-grinder, what Soviet soldiers and even tanks weren’t killed by the Germans, were killed upon returning by their own country-men. Too impatient to deal with mine-fields by mine-detectors or even bayonets, when he ran out of cows to herd across them, he used civilians, pows and even his own soldiers. German commanders couldn’t believe it. Historically even the Japanese weren’t so wreckless. There was a huge difference between the Japanese Banzai attacks and this."
http://www.monarch.net/users/miller...roes_Zhukov.htm |
Oh my, what a load of ****ing bullsh!t.
Only such nazi boys with SS posters avatars as you are, can claim that Zhukov was an incompetent commander and that all those old farts as Tukhachevsky were much better.
Who the f*ck are you to call Zhukov a moron?
To your knowledge Mr. "I love SS posters", military casualties of Germany and SU at Russian front in WW2 were 1:1,3 in favor of Germany, mostly because Soviets treated their prisoners far better, than nazi did (2/3 of Soviet POWs died in nazi camps; 1/7 of German POW's died in Soviet camps).
Last edited by Serb on 01-04-2004 at 17:38
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Saras
Serb will tell you about the best and brightest. Some were, some were not, a LOT were brought back from Gulags to become the most successful operational generals.
That aside, if Stalin had ordered a coordinated retreat in 1941 and not a "stand fast till death" orders, the red army might have, and I say might have, managed some serious counterattacks earlier on. I'm about through "Red Army Tank Commanders: the Armored Guards" and they were desperately scrapping units together from 90% depleted units in october-november. Imagine if they had a powerful retreated, equipped and rested STAVKA reserve and :gasp: cut off Panzergroup Guderian at the base in a massive encirclement? |
Saras, he gave this order "not a single step back" much later, already after Soviet counter-offensive at Moscow. As for coordinated retreat, the problem in 1941 was that no one, even Germans themselves had experience and knowledge how to efficiently resist blitzkreig type attack.
Red army slowly retreated in 1941 (the time was needed to evaquate industry). Also I see other two big problems with coordinated retreat- lack of modern radio communication (thanks to bright mind- Tukhachevsky ) and lack of means of transportation (Red Army was poorly motorized, thanks again comrade Tuhlyi , and Germans didn't give much time for Soviets to mobilize trucks from industry).
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Saras
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Vilnius, Lithuania
Apr 1999
time: 06:35
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Serb, I have this great book, written by Armstrong, based on corroboration of both German and Soviet sources (although he relies more on Soviet). It is about six less known (well, less known than the "household names" of Konev and Zhukov) Red Army Generals, who commanded 1-6 Guards tank armies - Katukov, Bogdanov, Lelyushenko, Kravchenko, Rotmistrov and Rybalko.
Although they do not state it explicitly, IMHO they could have retreated. These guys just kept running a few km and the counterattacked, with dreadful losses, and thus depleted themselves very fast to skeleton divisions with staffs only. Rearguard action, anyone? Ambushes? Napoleon did these things, had them done to him by the Spanish and the Russians, come on.
And iirc bogdanov and rotmistrov were brought back from siberian exile (after purges) to become what they became. So don't masturbate this tukhachevsky theme, he's not the only one purged.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Saras
Serb, I have this great book, written by Armstrong, based on corroboration of both German and Soviet sources (although he relies more on Soviet). It is about six less known (well, less known than the "household names" of Konev and Zhukov) Red Army Generals, who commanded 1-6 Guards tank armies - Katukov, Bogdanov, Lelyushenko, Kravchenko, Rotmistrov and Rybalko.
Although they do not state it explicitly, IMHO they could have retreated. These guys just kept running a few km and the counterattacked, with dreadful losses, and thus depleted themselves very fast to skeleton divisions with staffs only. Rearguard action, anyone? Ambushes? Napoleon did these things, had them done to him by the Spanish and the Russians, come on.
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Like Russians didn't do this in 1941.
The problem was that German army had much greater mobility, used strategy no one knew how to resist at this time and major part of this strategy was to disorganize the enemy, to destroy his command structure, to bring chaos.
Having their advantage in mobility Germans could/and did outmaneuver retreating Soviets, that lead to pockets and in most of the cases to surrender (many Soviet troops actually broke out throught pockets, sometimes units as big as divisions left pockets through forests at nights).
So, when their (I mean the generals you mentioned) units counter-attacked, I guess, they fulfilled their objectives. I think those counter-attacks were launched to let other forces re-group, to win some time.
quote:
And iirc bogdanov and rotmistrov were brought back from siberian exile (after purges) to become what they became. |
Bogdanov- yes, he was arrested in 1940. Rotmistrov- no, he was never arrested and never was in exile. After he finished military academy of Frunze, he was appointed to staff of "Zabaikalskaya" infantry division, located in Chita. After two years he was appointed to assistant of cheif of operative unit of staff of Far East army. I can't see how this could be an exile. Or perhaps you consider any time spent in Siberia as an exile? In this case, I'm myself spent most of my lifetime in exile.
quote:
So don't masturbate this tukhachevsky theme, he's not the only one purged. |
Me? The guys who call him the brightest mind in Red Army, are masturbating on his picture, not me.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:35
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quote:
Originally posted by TheStinger
If the Germans thought the SU was well led and organised they would not have invaded. They thought they could win because Stalin had purged the army. and that their armed forces were rubbish.
of course some of this perception was due to Nazi superiority theories but this was at the margins. |
The Germans wouldn't have invaded USSR regardless what they thought, but nazis would invaded USSR, no matter what. It was their, nazis, major goals from the beggining (Hitler's, Main Kampf) - to capture eastern territories and cleanese this new space from "inferior humans" (Slavs) and settle them with German colonists and to destroy communism.
As for what nazi thought, when they planned their attack, do you ever thought that they didn't have much choice? Had they give another 1-1.5 years to Stalin, to complete his programm of modernization of red Army, in 1942 they would faced an unbeatable force armed with tens of thousands of T-34, KV, IL, Yak, LaGG, rocket artillery, etc, instead of armada of rusty crap of T-26, BT-5, T-35, T-28, I-15, I-16, TB-3, etc. created by "brightest mind" Tukhachevsky.
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31-03-2004 20:22
great quote!
Hotya etim olen'yam odin her nichego ne dokazhesh, odin fez chego stoit.
It's a whole bunch of old motherf*ckers wearing SS uniforms and waving flags with swastickas over their heads, right Fezzy?
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