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shawnmmcc
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I honestly believe that without the brutality of Stalin, or someone like him, the Soviet Union could not have rapidly industrialized between the two world wars. If grant the premise of gradual free markets and industrialization, it requires Alexander II living long enough to begin the reforms that would lead to gradual change.
If this resulted in the gradual industrialization of Russia, it would follow the trend noted by the previous posters. Agriculture/light industry/resourse exports followed by a gradual increase in heavy industry. The problem with this timeline is that he actually signed a treaty with the Prussians. If you let him survive long enough to start a gentle industrialization, you probably rewrite WW1, and make the thread moot. 
Assuming Kirov or a some other internal Cabal displacing Stalin, who was an alchoholic paranoid - a very competent one, but still a monster, anybody who can sit up at night getting drunk while writing additional execution quotas to maintain the "terror" qualifies - if they stress industrialization as much as Stalin, you would think that they cannot do any worse at the start of WW2. However, Serb makes an excellent point.
If you get rid of Stalin but leave Tukhachevsky in, you may do worse. If you have the officers, but are using crap hardware, the Nazis do better. There was a case of a KV-1A stopping the lead units of a Panzer division for several days - they had nothing that could hurt it until they got 88mm AA (note - ANTI-AIRCRAFT big, heavy guns that were not nearly as mobile as the armored columns) up to the front.
Probably you're better off having Stalin die in 1939 just before the purges. He dies of a stroke after the invasion of Finland. The Red Army needs the fubar of Finland to find out how lousy their hadware is as well as their doctrine. Without that the Red Army may do WORSE against the Nazis. The problem is you need someone who will both push rapid industrialization brutally, who will start the Russo-Finish war (which means signing treaties with the Nazis - that was part of the price), and yet won't purge the army. It's pretty hard to replace Stalin. Now Alexander II surviving - that's an interesting what-if. Throw in Kaiser Frederick III ignoring his wife (the daughter of Queen Victoria) and listening to the German doctors (instead of the British quack who his wife convinced him to listen to) and surviving throat cancer, and suddenly the world is a VERY different place.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:35
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quote:
Originally posted by VetLegion
To people impressed with Stalin's achievements in industrialization:
Nonsense.
Central planning can produce some impressive works, and finish big projects like big dams or huge factories relatively fast. They're always big. North Korea is full of examples. You couple this with propaganda about tireless workers toiling for love and not for profit and you impress people.
"... a njegov san, hiljadu tona za jedan dan..."
While in fact, anything done by central planning on Soviet scale is terribly inneficient. Every big project is actually missalocating resources and harming the economy. Each of them could have been done twice as cheap and twice as good in free markets.
The less government meddling with economy the better, but if some has to exist (most industrial countries became such with active government involvement) then subsidies, tax cuts and similar are the way to go.
Stalin industrialized the SSSR
The nutcake prevented the country from properly industrializing is more like it. |
Blah...blah...blah... read some numbers first before making such idiotic claims.
Just for you, some words from the eyewitness of those events. From diary of USA ambassador in USSR (1937-1938), Joseph Davis (my translation from Russian, full version on Russian for Saras):
"Russian industry: With group of American journalists I visited 5 cities, where I saw the biggest industrial facilities: truck plant (12 000 workers), the plant of electric engines which considered the biggest plant of that kind in the world (38 000 workers), "Dneprogas" (Serb: it's hydropower plant), aluminium plant, which again considered as the largest plant of that kind in the world (3 000 workers), "Zaporozhstal" (Serb: it's steel plant) (35 000 workers), a hospital (18 doctors and 120 medics), kindergardens, "Rosselmash" (16 000 workers) (Serb: it's a factory of agricaltural machines) and the "palace of pioneeres" (the building with 280 rooms for 320 teachers and 27 000 children). The last is one of the most ineresting phenomenons in Soviet Union. Such "palaces" are being constructed in every big cities to bring into reality Stalin's slogan about children as the most valuable treasure of the country. There children's talents are being discovered and imroved.
What's amaze the most in Soviet practice of planning is
the courage while tacking decisions and will during realization of those decisions. Five years ago in Zaporozh'e region was only a plain steppe, today we can see huge factories and the city with 125 000 inhabitants, modern buildings, wide streets and squares. The buildings and equipment in most of the cases are the most modern available. The best companies mostly from USA, but also from Germany, France and England were invited on competive base to design them. Most of the workers are not older than 30. Very many women among them, about 25%. The average age of director is about 35. The average worker's salary is 200-250 rubles (10-12 $ on black market). In factory's restaurant you can have a good dinner for 2 roubles (10 cents). The house rent does not exceed 15% of salary. The salary of Stakhanovtzy (Serb: the workers who work really hard, very good workers) is up to 2000 rubles. (Serb: who said this "you pretend to pay us, we pretend to work?" eat this. During Stalin's time people were motivated to work good. The difference between salary of regular worker and very good worker was about TEN TIMES. The f*cker who brought this equality principles in salaries and buried all motivation for good working, was Khrushev and it was much later, after Stalin's death). The salary of director of a factory is about 2000 roubles as well. Every factory works in accordance with self-support principle. All incomes comes to varios needs, including construction of schools. During last year in Dnepropetrovsk were build 16 such schools, a big buildings with 25-30 rooms made off white bricks.
Some have suspicions regards capabilities of industry to support needs of front in case of big European war, however in my opinion, such capabilities could be much greater than some might to think (Serb: and this guy was damn right about this).
In general, new industrial regions makes a shoking impression: within 7 years Russians were able to did the same as America did within 40 years, since 80's of the last century." (Serb: actually it's more than 50 years, he wrote this in 1937. 1937-1880= 57 Hmm... the American education system? )
The end of qoute.
Once again, it was from diary of Mr. Joseph Davis. The American ambassador in Soviet Union. March 12 1937.
Now a full story on Russian for Saras and other Russian speakers (I'm too lazy to translate it completely), btw, Saras it contains a part about Lithuanian ambassador:
"(19 января 1937 г.) …Москва оказалась для меня полной неожиданностью. Разумеется – это красивый старый город, деятельность которого видишь на улицах, количество зданий, которые повсюду строятся, а также удобная одежда, вполне обычная для местных жителей, меня очень удивили.
Москва очень похожа на другие европейские города со своими светофорами, большими троллейбусами на улицах, трамваями, автомобилями, грузовиками и т.п. Толпы повсюду. Город наполняется людьми из деревни, которые приезжают сюда работать на автомобильных заводах. За короткое время население выросло с 1,8 до 4 млн. человек, поэтому жилища крайне переполнены, однако на улице нельзя обнаружить каких-либо признаков нужды. Все выглядят прекрасно…
ПРОЦЕСС ПЯТАКОВА И РАДЕКА 17 февраля 1937 г. Подсудимые выглядят физически здоровыми и вполне нормальными. Порядок процесса разительно отличается от того, что принят в Америке, однако учитывая то, что природа людей одинакова повсюду, и опираясь на собственный адвокатский опыт, можно сделать вывод, что обвиняемые говорят правду, признавая свою вину в совершении тяжких преступлений. (18 февраля 1937 г.)
Общее мнение дипкорпуса состоит в том, что правительство в ходе процесса достигло своей цели и доказало, что обвиняемые, по крайней мере, участвовали в каком-то заговоре.
Беседа с литовским послом: он считает, что все разговоры о пытках и наркотических препаратах, якобы применяемых в отношении к подсудимым, лишены всяких оснований. Он высокого мнения о советском руководстве во многих отношениях.
Беседа с послом, проведшим в России 6 лет. Его мнение: заговор существовал и подсудимые виновны. Они с юных лет вели подпольную борьбу, многие годы провели за границей и психологически предрасположены к заговорщической деятельности. (19 февраля 1937)"
Сегодня мы знаем, благодаря усилиям ФБР, что гитлеровские агенты действовали повсюду, даже в Соединенных Штатах и Южной Америке. Немецкое вступление в Прагу сопровождалось активной поддержкой военных организаций Гелена. То же самое происходило в Норвегии (Квислинг), Словакии (Тисо), Бельгии (де Грелль) ... Однако ничего подобного в России мы не видим. "Где же русские пособники Гитлера?" – спрашивают меня часто. "Их расстреляли", – отвечаю я.
Только сейчас начинаешь сознавать, насколько дальновидно поступило советское правительство в годы чисток. Тогда меня шокировала та бесцеремонность и даже грубость, с какой советские власти закрывали по всей стране консульства Италии и Германии, невзирая ни на какие дипломатические осложнения. Трудно было поверить в официальные объяснения, что сотрудники миссий участвовали в подрывной деятельности. Мы в то время много спорили в своем кругу о борьбе за власть в кремлевском руководстве, но как показала жизнь, мы сидели "не в той лодке". (7 июля 1941 г.)".
РУССКАЯ ПРОМЫШЛЕННОСТЬ. С группой американских журналистов я посетил 5 городов, где осмотрел крупнейшие предприятия: тракторный завод (12 тыс. работающих), завод электродвигателей (38 тыс. рабочих), Днепрогэс, алюминиевый завод (3 тыс. рабочих), который считается крупнейшим в мире, Запорожсталь (35 тыс. рабочих), больницу (18 врачей и 120 медсестер), ясли и детские сады, завод Ростсельмаш (16 тыс. работающих), Дворец пионеров (здание с 280 помещениями для 320 преподавателей и 27 тыс. детей). Последнее из этих учреждений представляет собой одно из наиболее интересных явлений в Советском Союзе. Подобные дворцы возводятся во всех крупных городах и предназначаются для воплощения в жизнь сталинского лозунга о детях как наиболее ценном достоянии страны. Здесь у детей раскрываются и развиваются их дарования.
В советской практике планирования больше всех поражает смелость в принятии решений и упорство в их осуществлении. Пять лет назад в районе Запорожья была голая степь, а сегодня можно видеть огромные заводы и город с населением 125 тыс. человек, с современными кирпичными жилыми домами, широкими улицами и площадями. Все сооружения возводились руками неквалифицированных рабочих, которые по вечерам занимались в технических школах, чтобы по окончании строительства занять места у станков. Здания и оборудование в большинстве своем самые современные. К их проектированию привлекались на конкурсной основе лучшие фирмы, преимущественно из США, но также из Германии, Франции и Англии. Большинство рабочих не старше 30 лет. Обращает на себя внимание многочисленность женщин – около 25%. Средний возраст руководителей – порядка 35 лет. Средняя зарплата составляет от 200 до 250 руб. (10-12 долл. по курсу черного рынка). В заводской столовой можно хорошо пообедать за 2 рубля (10 центов). Квартплата не превышает 15% от заработка. Стахановцы получают до 2000 руб., столько же зарабатывает и директор.
Каждое предприятие работает на принципе самоокупаемости, заработанные прибыли идут на различные нужды, в том числе на строительство школ, которых только за прошлый год было построено в Днепропетровске 16 – больших зданий из белого кирпича на 25-30 комнат.
Имеются сомнения относительно способности промышленности длительное время поддерживать нужды фронта в случае большой европейской войны, однако, по моему мнению, эти способности могут оказаться значительно выше, чем ожидается.
В целом новые промышленные районы производят потрясающее впечатление: русским удалось сделать за 7 лет столько же, сколько Америке за 40 – начиная с 80-х годов прошлого века. (12 марта 1937 г.)"
Still think free market can did better? Perhaps you need some numbers about Stalin's industrial leap?
Last edited by Serb on 01-04-2004 at 17:23
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Dr Strangelove
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IIRC Trotsky wasn't Stalin's most serious challenger for control of the Soviet Union after Lenin's death. Wasn't the other contender for leadership a moderate? I think his name was Malinkov, but I could be wrong. It's difficult to say how the history of the Soviet Union and Europe would have evolved with the SU under a less paranoid leader. Stalin commanded an enormous expansion of the Russian economy and military, but at a tremendopus human cost. Many of his accomplishments were built by slave labor. Would the Soviet Union's industrial capacity have grown as much under a more humane leader? It's hard to say. Under less harsh rule the SU might have fallen apart or stagnated. OTOH a kinder hand might have inspired people to even greater heights. A more moderate leader though might have not emphasized military power as much a Stalin, but under better rule the soldiers might have fought better.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:35
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quote:
Depends what you mean by "better". |
I mean the preparation to war for survival of course.
The creation of industrial base to produce weapons to defend the country from agressors within extremely short time.
The creation of food base for needs of future war (before Stalin, Russia was an agarian country with 80% of citizens being peasants. Two peasants hardly could feed one urban citizen. After Stalin's collectivization one peasant feeded 7 urban citizens, so kolhozes were damn effective), within extremely short time.
The creation of high- tech base (T-34, KV-2, IL-2, Katusha, anyone?), within extremely short time.
That's what I mean.
Last edited by Serb on 01-04-2004 at 18:15
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
IIRC Trotsky wasn't Stalin's most serious challenger for control of the Soviet Union after Lenin's death. Wasn't the other contender for leadership a moderate? I think his name was Malinkov, but I could be wrong. |
Malenkov was the head of Soviet state after the Lenin death. He had the same rank as Lenin had. He, like Lenin before his illines was the "predsedatel' soveta narodnyh komissarov"= prime minister. Stalin was one of the commisares (ministers), so formaly, Malenkov, was his boss, like previously Lenin was. So he couldn't be a challenger for power, since formally he already had this power, but since he was an incompetent moron who couldn't handle any problems, he lost his power. However he gain it again in 1953, after Stalin's death, just to lose it again to Khrushev. Oh, almost forget, he on pair with Khrushev actually killed Stalin in 1953, Stalin didn't die because of natural reasons, he was murdered. Shocking, isn't it?
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Hurricane
Of course, US ambassador Davies' impressions are utterly worthless, since the Russians only showed him the best successes, and also in these cases polished everything to make it look good. You could just as well show some propaganda painting and say "see here how well-fed and happy everyone is". Besides, who cares if a factory is (drumbeat) "the biggest in the world"? Only in megalomaniac dictatorships is size a goal in itself. |
Yeah, right. The Russian sources are communist's propaganda and American sources are Soviet propaganda as well.
Just what kind of f*cking sources do you need? Let me tell you, all you need are sources pulled of out of some kind of hippie ass, who is broadcasting from a galaxy far, far away, because he is being pretty high after all those drugs, such sources that claims that USSR was an evil empire, that Soviets were scum of humanity and Stalin was an alcoholic paranoid, who stored notes of his victims, wrote death warrants at nights and had eaten babies of course.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:35
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Eat this. I'm log-off.
 Attachment: ussr_flag.gif
This has been downloaded 78 time(s).
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shawnmmcc
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Serb - you do your sometimes excellent posts a disservice by posting things like that. Look at how Ned and I disagree on history - we may be passionate, but we are polite. It's nice to have someone else who realizes how much of a difference hardware can make and is knowledgable but just disagree. Your previous post more easily let's people blow you off as a jerk. By the way, the BT-series of tanks were excellent tracked recon vehicles, i.e. amored cars for mud, given the time period. The problem is how they were used, main battle tank is NOT what they were good for.
Alexander's Horse has a very legitemate point. First, I hope you won't disagree that Stalin was an alcholic? That would be silly, the historical record is pretty clear on that. Now was he substantially worse than the average in the Soviet Union at the time? I don't have the data. Did he let it substantially affect his governance? Not substantially.
Was he a pyschopath - which is no longer a meaningful term in mental health in the US - was he a sociopath, as in a person with no sense of right or wrong. My comment about how he increased the number of death warrants issued with no individual in mind, JUST TO MAINTAIN THE TERROR, is pretty self-explanatory. Actually sociopath may also have been superceded, I'd have to ask my wife and she's asleep. But it all means the same. It boils down to the man was a monster.
Was he paranoid? There are VERY strong indications of that. He executed people who truly had no interest in overthrowing him, and saw conspiracies everywhere. That is typically indicative of classical paranoia. Did his executions/exiles/gulags at times hurt his industrial and war efforts. Absolutely. Could he have stayed in power without them? That becomes an interesting question. He comes to power by assassination, execution, and murder. He built a vicious feed-back loop where by the time he could have toned the "paranoia" down, so many people wanted him dead that he very well may have been unable to retreate from his "when in doubt, execute" world view. However, given the historical record, which indicates that he never even considered this quandry and it has all the hallmarks of classic paranoia.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:35
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1) BT, were absolutely stupid tanks, their concept was stupid from the beggining. And "red marshal" Tuckhachevsky build thousands, sh!tloads of them. He did not ordered those tanks for recon mission. He saw them as cruise tanks and ordered several thousands of them, while to brake enemy's defensive lines he ordered T-35, 5 turreted monster, with armor which can be penatrated by German guns of WW1. (The 13 mm armor of BT German troops could penatrate with AP rounds of their rifles). Overall about fifty T-35 were made. Cool isn't it? 50 T-35 broke throught enemy's defenses and then several thousands of BT start to puse the enemy. He was a bright mind, indeed. The bulk of Soviet armor forces in 1941 were T-26, a modified Vickers tank unreliable, with tiny armor, slow, i.e. even more crap as BT. This armada of rusty metal crap, created by Red marshal was wiped-out by Germans within months. Few survived BT were used as scout vehicles, because they couldn't be used elsewhere.
2) Stalin was not an alcoholic, alcoholics usally don't live long and don't have bright mind to make really desicive desicions.
3) He wasn't paranoid as well.
4) Western brainwashing machine is awesome.
5) Unfortunately it was we Russians who started to create absurd myths about Stalin, thus giving fuel for your brainwashing machine. Khrushev was kinda f*cker.
6) Have a nice day. I have to log-off now.
p.s. and please Shawnmmcc, take a deep breath, I didn't want to ofend you. It was reply to Hurricane.
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shawnmmcc
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Serb, thank you for the note. Bear with me. It may be that our two cultures define alchoholic differently. I have seen numerous citiations that Stalin consumed a fair amount of Vodka, multiple times a month. He was not a "drunk", as in letting the alchohol disable him. But people who drink routinely, with many drinks up to a substantial portion of a bottle in one sitting, are considered alcholic. Note I did not consider it delibilitating per se, but it evidently did not help his dispostion nor do anything good for those whose death warrants he was signing. Many bright minds have had problems with alchohol, and with the right ancestry you will not necessarily get cirrohsis of the liver as long as it isn't constant. Also, if Khruschev fed the west this false history, where is a non-Russian speaking historian type going to find translated documents that show this was false. It's the nasty problem in studying Soviet History - whose history and when did the party write it. 
Reference the BT, yes I know it was not the T-60 or the T-70, two vehicles designed as scout tanks or tankettes. However, given it's speed and capability it would have made an excellent scout tank. The heavy tank break out concept, with the cavalry tank break out, was NOT that far removed from a Blitzkreig. Imagine instead of the few T-34's and KV-1's as part of a spearhead with the BT-5/7's as the breakout vehicles. Compared to the AFV's the Nazis used in France quite successfully (Pzkw 1 (machine guns) - II (20mm canon) - III and Czech 38t (37mm canon) - IV (short 75mm field gun), it wouldn't have been that different.
However, the Red Army at the time did not the flexibility in doctrine/lower command initiative to make that kind of tactical doctrine work. Plus the lack of radios really cramps any mobile doctrine. In fact the Soviet armed forces never quite put these together except on a special forces level, look at Afghanistan half a century later. You need both to be truly successful - hardware and doctrine. The Nazis showed that doctrine and organization can get you further than hardware at times.
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Hurricane
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Arctic Hill
May 2001
time: 07:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Serb
Yeah, right. The Russian sources are communist's propaganda and American sources are Soviet propaganda as well.
Just what kind of f*cking sources do you need? |
Have you read "A Century of Violence in Soviet Russia" by Alexander N. Yakolev? I highy recommend it; written by a Russian that was part of the top communist machinery. He if anybody should know what he is talking about.
quote:
4) Western brainwashing machine is awesome.
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Not nearly as awesome as the Soviet machine.
And just a small comment to shawnmmcc's post:
quote:
Did his executions/exiles/gulags at times hurt his industrial and war efforts. Absolutely. |
The "at times" is really redundant. The gulag mines and factories were never profitable.
EDIT: I should probably point out that there of course were some profitable camps, but that the Gulag system as a whole was unprofitable and much more unefficient than corresponding institutions with free workers.
Last edited by Hurricane on 01-04-2004 at 20:17
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ErikM
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quote:
Originally posted by Hurricane
Have you read "A Century of Violence in Soviet Russia" by Alexander N. Yakolev? I highy recommend it; written by a Russian that was part of the top communist machinery. He if anybody should know what he is talking about.
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Alternatively, we can dismiss his works as a commie propaganda. Or do we just accept anything that states that Soviets were monsters as true (regardless of the souurce) and deny everything else as a biased account.
quote:
Not nearly as awesome as the Soviet machine.
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The big difference between Soviet and Western propaganda is that no Soviet really believed what he saw on TV or read in newspapers. Thus, it was not truly effective, at least in post-Khrushchev USSR.
Western propaganda is much more sophisticated, I'll grant you that. That's only makes it more dangerous. "Wag the Dog" may be a satire, but it really is not too far from the reality.
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01-04-2004 15:50
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