01-04-2004 18:01									#1
	Will there ever be a MoM2? Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Well, Microprose was disbanded, or something, like a year and a half ago, yes, but Atari now owns the Master of Magic name, I think. Granted, Atari doesn't always do the best job with its licenses, but do you think there's any hope of a MoM2, ever?

	01-04-2004 18:22									#2
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I fear not. The game still has a fanatically loyal following after all these years, but its name recognition is a lot lower than, for example, Civilization. The game has an awful lot of interactions and would be complicated to program. I don't see it being a big moneymaker, which is the main criterion for games being funded and produced.

	01-04-2004 23:57									#3
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True, but modern programmers are quickly ruining old classic franchises quicker than new nostalgia-generators can be enshrined in the public psyche, e.g. Master of Orion 3, and arguably Civ3. They might have to do some real digging soon if they want to appeal to the those-were-the-days crowd.

Besides, MoM would in my opinion gain a great deal from certain simplifications, just to make it harder to play cheap tricks or exploit bugs and easier to get into. A lot of the races, for example, are superfluous, and the tactical combat screen doesn't add much to gameplay as it is.

	02-04-2004 18:11									#4
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At this point, I doubt anyone will pick upthe ball far MOM2, which is kind of a shame.

On the brighter side, the spiritual successor is Probably Age Of Wonders: Shadow Magic. I intend to get this game soon.

Age Of Wonders has been described as MOMish since it first came out, but was kind of watered down. It wasn't until I read a "Tom vs. Bruce" game in a recent magazine that I realized just how MOM like Shadow Magic must be.

special abilities, and multiple selections of them if you like. one player camping on the passage to the other realm, frustrating the other until he cast a phase shift spell on a stack and started rampaging, causing a WTF!!?? reaction from the first guy.

Has anyone else played this?

	02-04-2004 20:09									#5
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Father Beast - I spent some time playing the Age of Wonders II demo; I found a lot of things to like about it, but, in the end, it didn't grab me (lack of random map generator was one reason). AoW:SM does have a random map, but, the last I heard, the AIs would never build a settler unit. So it's still not MoM II, but it sounds like a really good game if you like playing scenarios. Age of Wonders Heaven has some pretty good forums; I lurked there for a while while trying to make up my mind on this game.

	06-04-2004 18:05									#6
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eventually, maybe.

I'll never give up hope.

	11-04-2004 16:54									#7
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Hopefully.

	15-04-2004 00:46									#8
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I've played through most of Shadow Magic, and I would definately recommend it if you enjoy MoM. It doesn't have quite the same level of overall empire-building, but the tactical combat is very similar to MoM, and just as enjoyable.

	16-04-2004 00:47									#9
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Quicksivler was thinking about doing Master of Magic 2 after Master of Orion 3 but, fortunetly, I think they've forgotten about it since that disaster.


I'd be happy with just a version of MoM that ran under windows... and maybe with higher resolution graphics.

	16-04-2004 00:49									#10
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quote: Originally posted by ZargonX I've played through most of Shadow Magic, and I would definately recommend it if you enjoy MoM. It doesn't have quite the same level of overall empire-building, but the tactical combat is very similar to MoM, and just as enjoyable.

yeah, shadowmagic is deffinately good, and has a bit of the MoM feeling, but stil falls shrot in my opinion. Dominions 2 is another excellent game that shares the genre, but it takes a different aproach.

	17-04-2004 09:12									#11
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I can still see it happening eventually...

	21-04-2004 13:55									#12
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Please, oh please let the powers that be produce a MOM2 ...

Oh please ...

And let them NOT include Kender (or halflings) ...

	22-04-2004 17:41									#13
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Halflings rock, it's the gnoll and lizardmen that are basically superfluous.

	23-04-2004 00:43									#14
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quote: Halflings rock, it's the gnoll and lizardmen that are basically superfluous.

You must be joking.

The lizzies were awesome !

Every unit they made was amphibious ! The Dragon Turtles were like amphibious panzers. Few, if any, "normal" armies could stand against them, and most summoned units fell pretty quickly too.

When I played them, I went one of two ways with my picks, either all Green books or I went for Zero books and combos like Myrran, Warlord, Alchemist, and some other traits.

The all green books allowed you to get the spell Gaia's Blessing right from the start. The pop growth of this spell combined with the lizzies naturally fast growth allowed you to out-grow everybody else. You would get the better green creatures faster and before long, your army of Dragon Turtles would be supported by Water Walking Great Wyrms; nothing stands in the way of that army for long.

The all traits allows you to rush for the SoM and still have advanced 'normal' troops. Granted, this strategy can backfire and does force you to start with a non-Myrran race on Myrror; but the fast growth allows you to clearly out-shine the actual myrran races.

Who cares if you couldn't develop your cities very far ? The game was usually over before most players could get that far ...

The lizzies were the BEST race to Blitz with.


Although, I do kind of agree with you about the uselessness of the gnolls. Dumb-@ss doggies should play games they might actually win. Like Chew-on-the-Kender.

	27-04-2004 08:36									#15
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Sid meier said he would work on MOM 2 after Pirates.So work on MOM 2 could start 2005.Still there would be 2 or 3 years before it comes out.Hurry up and wait.

	27-04-2004 16:27									#16
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What the hell? Why would Sid Meier do MoM2? Keep him away from it!

	28-04-2004 00:08									#17
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Rjak, link to source please. Or is this just another unsubstantiated random rumor?

Sid didn't have much of anything to do with MOM 1, why would he be interested in picking up someone else's franchise? Sid seems to have lost his golden touch with Civ3, anyway.

	29-04-2004 10:56									#18
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Last year's E3 Sid said he would do Pirates.Then MOM 2.Atari has the rights.If MOM 2 is coming out Firaxis will be doing it.It's couldn't possibly be any worse than MOO 3.

	29-04-2004 16:30									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Rjak It's couldn't possibly be any worse than MOO 3.

That's not a very optimistic sentiment.

	29-04-2004 21:11									#20
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Thanks for the information, Rjak.

I'm very wary of Sid doing MOM2. I think he would do a poor job of it because it doesn't play to the strength of the Firaxis people.

Even when they were doing Alpha Centauri, Sid stressed that their strength was in extremely detailed research. They're ability to do in-depth research helps with historical games like Civ and even Pirates. And they used their research to help create a plausible future tech tree in Alpha Centauri. You can even see evidence of their research skills in the science fiction books they used for inspiration and to ground themselves in the field.

MOM, being a fantastical work, has less reliance on researched details, and thus Firaxis would be unable to bring their strength to bear.

In the gameplay department, I think they lost a lot of good people when Brian Reynolds left. Brian designed SMAC and also was responsible for the bulk of Civ2. His departure along with a lot of other Firaxians was the reason Civ3 wasn't up to par. Thus, Brian Reynolds may be a superior game designer to Sid, who mainly relies on his name recognition.

A MOM2 from Firaxis may be as much a disaster as MOO3 was.

	30-04-2004 12:23									#21
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Steve Barcia would be the right man to do it.But I have not heard much about Steve or Caspian-Kaufman.Since we won't see a MOM 2 till 2006 the earliest I just hope MOM 2 isn't made in realtime.Meanwhile I'm waiting for E3.Hurry up and wait.

	03-05-2004 18:38									#22
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The team that built MOO3 had the rights to build MOM2 and said they would if there was enough sales of MOO3. The money men thought that sales of MOO3 would indicate buying interest in MOM2

	04-05-2004 01:49									#23
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Unfortunately sales of MOO3 went down the toilet.Quicksilver is out of the equation.

	04-05-2004 05:40									#24
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quote: Originally posted by pchang The team that built MOO3 had the rights to build MOM2 and said they would if there was enough sales of MOO3. The money men thought that sales of MOO3 would indicate buying interest in MOM2

This is the best example of faulty logic I've seen in a long time. Hope it isn't true.

	04-05-2004 15:17									#25
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It's true. QS did indeed say that they wanted to ask for the rights to do MOM2 after MOO3. The money ppl wanted high MOO3 sales to prove that classic discontinued TBS games (i.e., MOO/MOM) were still money makers if remade, and that QS could do the job.

Since QS failed miserably with MOO3, there's no way their request for MOM2 would be approved. And it's unlikely that the money ppl would want to do a MOM2 after getting burned on MOO3. Basically, the financers see MOO3 and MOM2 as the same thing -- remakes/sequels of ancient turn-based-strategy games that have been discontinued for a longtime. They took low MOO3 sales to indicate that there was little interest in this genre, and thus little profit in doing a MOM2. (They judge on $, and don't care that the real reason sales sank was b/c MOO3 sucked. They just decided there was no profitable market interest for MOO3/MOM2).

If Sid wants to do MOM2, he's got an uphill battle to convince them it would be profitable.

Last edited by ApolytonGuest on 04-05-2004 at 15:23

	05-05-2004 00:42									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Vince278 This is the best example of faulty logic I've seen in a long time. Hope it isn't true.

That's a pretty bold assertion to make on this forum, but you may be right. I already knew about it, but my respect for corporate planning strategies was already sufficiently low that I wasn't too surprised when I found out.

If you change it to mean "if Quicksilver can't make MOO3 fun, we ain't letting 'em touch MOM2," it makes perfect sense, though. They have no reason to assume the series is bad, but everything I've heard about MOO3 makes it sound like a graphically intensive spreadsheet program. "A game to simulate bloated bureaucracy on a scale never before imagined! It'll be fun!" The fact that they didn't shoot down Quicksilver the second they heard that proposal indicates that they're dumb enough to think anything...

	05-05-2004 08:42									#27
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Not so bold really. It sounded like they were saying (1) MOO3=MOM2 and (2) MOO3 sold poorly therefore so will MOM2 (regardless of the reason why). The first is classic faulty logic (apples and oranges) and the second is a kind of corporate logic that would make sense if it was well thought out but that does not appear to be the case. Personally, I will continue to be optimistic and keep my fingers crossed.

	06-05-2004 01:21									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Vince278 Personally, I will continue to be optimistic and keep my fingers crossed.

Now who's guilty of faulty logic?

	06-05-2004 02:19									#29
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quote: It sounded like they were saying (1) MOO3=MOM2 and (2) MOO3 sold poorly therefore so will MOM2 (regardless of the reason why).

Yes, this is exactly what they're saying. Where we and they disagree is on the reason. We think it sold poorly b/c MOO3 sucked, and that this is not an indicator of MOM2 sales. They think MOO3 sold poorly b/c there is no interest in this genre of remaking old TBS, and that therefore is an indicator that MOM2 will sell poorly.

Whether you like their logic or not, they're the ones holding the purse-strings. It's their investment money at risk. So, you need to convince them they'll make a huge profit if you want them to risk their money investing in MOM2. I'm sure the sales pitch for MOM2 sounds very similar to MOO3 to their ears -- remake an old classic, TBS, huge hit in past, fan following, discontinued for years, nostalgia, etc.

Now convince them why they should put money into another classical TBS remake after losing money on MOO3, instead of investing in an RPG or RTS or first person shooter or something else.

It's not so much that MOO3=MOM2. Rather it's that they see MOO3=unprofitable genre/no buyers, and MOM2=same genre.

	06-05-2004 09:05									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Elok Now who's guilty of faulty logic?

Not so. But I may be guilty of being optimistic to the point of being naive. I was excited and disappointed with MOO3 and am trying to be hopeful about MOM2.