15-06-2000 18:50									#1
	Creation of New Threads Restricted to 1/person/day in OT Part II Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Normally I don't do this in forums that I don't moderate. But it looks like MarkG hasn't posted in a while...

And since this is a hot topic...
Carry on.
The first thread can be found at: http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum20/HTML/000784-4.html?date=09:46

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Ming
CivII & Off-Topic Forum Moderator
Ming@Apolyton.net

	15-06-2000 18:59									#2
	Got spare money?

... And what will Apolyton be like after three weeks?

Everybody posts as before. MarkG hasn't deleted the hack because he doesn't remember which part of the code is hack and which not(Of course he doesn't tell it). This thread is pretty much died, but the posters who really have a problem with this system still complain. And nothing happens. What MarkG has done, seems to remain.

	15-06-2000 19:06									#3
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

To sum up the previous thread

For
MarkG
Narck
Franklin
Lazarus & Gimp
Bird

Against
Stefu
MWHC
Saras
Murgatroyd
Provost H
SnowFire
Ming
Huey
DarthVeda
LightEning
Hugo Rune
Gary
Frodo83
CyberAmazon
Graag
MtG
Sparrowhawk
Paul Hanson
Atahualpa
Naj
CapTVK
Colon
Starchild
DanS
Imran Siddiqui
Black Dragon
Mleonard
GP
WarVoid
AH
Benedetti
Bill3000
Gsquid
Connorkimbro
Urban Ranger
MasterBob
Sergeant Sheets
Adam Smith
Berzerker
Werefox
Lancer
Tnapoleon
VictorG
UEC
Gary
Makeo
JETW
MOBIUS
Hydey
OldWarrior42
Graag
Reismark
Roland
Pikachu


Can't Tell
Rah
Cthol

For:5
Against: 54
Can't Tell:2

There are 10x as many people against as there are for, including BOTH OT
moderators, most people who work for you in the Apolyton site, and primarily
On-Topic posters.

I STRONGLY urge you to reconsider.

	15-06-2000 19:09									#4
	Tired of ads?

If you are getting complaints from people saying their topics are falling to page 2 well tough! That happens, post a more interesting topic! That way people will look for it again, if they haven't posted in it it's probably a boring thread anyway.

I always check the first 2/3 pages if I haven't been aroung for a while.

	15-06-2000 19:20									#5
	Suffering from ads?

GS,
If you look at it like that, put me on the against list. I don't post much on OT but I don't like this at all.

	15-06-2000 19:29									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

squid, you're not counting correctly
there should be one category for "totally against it" and one for "for but not that strict"
unless you're doing this just to oppose the decision based on the difference of opinions of others

and since you're counting, let me count as well
incidents of people being affected by the decision: after 30 hours, 2 known incidents(UEC,GS), but they just used their thread for the wrong reason(thread on the issue already existed). Also, UEC made a DL to disrupt the first thread of this discussion instead of giving arguments(is he one of the good posters who is leaving to escape the restrictions of this forum?)

My mailbox is waiting for more mails of affected people when such incidents occur. If there are enough problems, the setting will change. It wont change because 50 or 1000 people believe such a setting is restrictive and prefer to have two people doing the same job on a 24 hour basis

Beyond that, I wont continue the theoritical debate on what might happen in the future. I think I have explained my position.
Sorry, I have a newsletter to post...

<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by MarkG (edited June 15, 2000).]</font>

	15-06-2000 19:42									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I am very sure that, if this restriction was in operation in the past, there would have been numerous occasions when I would have been affected.

I would also have been affected when people had not posted a second interesting thread of interest because they were not able. There are those sort of external costs that need to be considered on BOTH sides.

To say that your mailbox is not full of responses from people that are immediately affected is highly simplistic if not downright misleading.

If those two people are being prevented from starting an interesting thread which we might then have contributed to, enjoyed, spammed, or whatever then it affects all of us.

As far as I can see, this restriction is here to stay and attempting to argue logically will not change your mind. I suppose we'll just have to live with it or go elsewhere.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Jesus Egg that Wept (edited June 15, 2000).]</font>

	15-06-2000 19:48									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

The solution seems so simple...

Whenever you get the message saying you can't start a thread, send an E-Mail to MarkG explaining the circumstances and tell him it affected you. Sure it is easier to just post to this thread to discuss the issue... But MarkG is asking to be convinced that this is really too much. That's all he is asking for. DL's... spamming... talk of revolution.. selling your thread for the day (I just have to love the capitalistic nature of some of our posters) isn't the answer.

So it's really pretty simple... just e-mail him with the specifics he is asking for

	15-06-2000 19:54									#9
	Got spare money?

But Ming,

With respect, that is just my point.

It may not affect me today but it might have affected me in the past. Clearly, on any day when I started more than one thread then it would have affected me. On any day in the past that anyone started more than one thread, it affected them.

To just use the present as a test is plainly biasing the test. And, I argue that the effects of seeing or not-seeing a given thread are felt more widely than the small number of people who say they are directly affected and the even smaller number who see any point in e-mailing MarkG in the vain hope that he will change his mind.

	15-06-2000 19:58									#10
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

If we wanted to do a more honest measure of how many people were affected, try the following (but it's a big job and needs to be automated).

Take the last month or so and write a script to add up the number of times posters started multiple threads in a day (counting each individual thread of course).

This would still be restrictive. However, if you then added the number of posts that were added to the additional threads (sorting to exclude multiple posts by the same poster) then you would have an indication of the amount of posters it would affect.

Complicated? Yes.
Impossible? I don't know.
A fair measure? Certainly.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Jesus Egg that Wept (edited June 15, 2000).]</font>

	15-06-2000 20:04									#11
	Suffering from ads?

Squid,

let me just say that I am for this idea, yes, but I don't necessarily see the logic of 1 thread every 24 hours. Perhaps it needs to be less than that (12 hours? 8 hours?)...

Then again, I don't care since I hardly post new topics on OT anyway

Carry on

	15-06-2000 20:11									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

JETW... Obviously, logic dictates that if you were to look in the past, you would find tons of examples of what you are saying.
But that really proves nothing.

Last night some people spent a bunch of time spamming the OTF with their messages of revolution... If they had just sent a e-mail instead, it would have been more effective.
In looking at it from MarkG's perspective, only two people have complained... granted, many people here have voiced their opinions, but he is looking for specific examples, and everybody here is talking in generalities, or just in principle.

So when the new rule affects you... just email him. Then he will know!

	15-06-2000 20:54									#13
	Inflate your Upload Space

Ignored
Tsk

My earlier post was definitely a post against, Squid.

	15-06-2000 23:30									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Here is my donation of 2 cents.

MarkG, I think you might have overlooked one thing, which is, that by responding with a rule on complaints you sort of obliged yourself to do so again in the future, unless you want people complaining about discrimination or you don't mind additional work.

(to those who wish to put me in a side, count me as 'against', life's complicated enough without all those rules )

	15-06-2000 23:40									#15
	Increase Your PM Length

If this rule will stay intact, I will send an email to Mark about creating a second thread all the time, cause I have so much time
But I will do this!

MarkG, cant you think, today is perhaps not one such day where I wanted to create two threads. But maybe if I think, I always carry around with me some ideas.

Or well, I create some multiple topic threads, but thats not that fun!
ATa

	16-06-2000 01:07									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

A couple of additional thoughts:

1. It does not appear that the proposed changes would stop spammers who dig up old threads and post them on Page 1, which we have seen in the past.

2. It appears that the current 'e-mail request for an additional tread' system will eventually generate a steady stream of e-mails. Mark and Dan, would you rather have that than having to deal with the occasional spammer?

3. To the people who have griped aboout rules in the past, this is why there are rules. Continued abuse eventually gets to be a headache for the owners and moderators. Perhaps heavier penalties for spammers eg longer IP bans and Village Idiot title as suggested by Hugo Rune would be helpful.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Adam Smith (edited June 15, 2000).]</font>

	16-06-2000 01:22									#17
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

To protest:
Start your daily thread each day.

Murgatroyd

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Repeal The 1 Thread/Day Limit!!!

	16-06-2000 01:42									#18
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I'm not sure if my replies makes any sence but I make it anyway.

There are maaaany days I don't post new threads at all. And there are days I post 4 new threads (very rare, but it happened)

It's impossible to spread 4 threads over 4 days in some cases.

If there are spam problems in the OT there is only ONE solution, and that solution is more moderators.

I'm completely against it.

CyberShy

	16-06-2000 01:54									#19
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

For my 1.3 penceworth at current exchange rates:

Examples of where I have posted more than one thread a day:

'Athlon owners of the world, unite' (about AMD/Intel competition) and 'Pour La Republique Francaise' (about lack of French Apolyton posters), neither spam threads.

Or, 'Dale Winton and Carol Vorderman are hell bent on global domination' (about the dominance of British TV by the same presenters) or 'I hope AMD aren't getting all Intel on us' (again about Intel vs AMD, and AMD beginning to use tactics more like Intel), neither span threads, and both posted on the same day.

Or, 'The things we do for science' (an explanation of some of the more perculiar experiments I do, and question whether anyone else has to do weird stuff) or 'The drug culture...' (Curiosity into why people feel compelled to take drugs). No spam there. Nope. Not at all.

'Money...it's role has gone too far.' (analysis into the role of currency and wealth in modern society) and 'Sods Theorem...' (irreverent analysis into that expression 'Anything that can go wrong, will go wrong'). Again, not spam.

Or alternatively. 'The Duke of Edinburgh says something sensible!?' (about Prince Philip breaking the habit of a lifetime and saying something of worth) or 'What is it to be 'normal'?' (analysis into what makes the common man tick, and my problem with this)

***Also note that these have been found in the off-topic itself, without even diving into the archives where I would find many more examples. And I am not a regular new post starter.

That is an example of how I have flashes of inspiration. All these are examples of threads I have posted on the same day, none of which are spam (I don't post spam threads). So don't restrict those of us who do produce more than one good posts a day. THis example, will, of course, by emailed to markg@apolyton.net if he so wishes to see peoples examples of why they vehemently oppose these haf-baked ideas

We can also already see people trying to use up their post!!!
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Provost Harrison (edited June 15, 2000).]</font>

	16-06-2000 02:10									#20
	Tired of ads?

MarkG:
Your intentions are good (I'd like to see another method of reaching the end result), but you just can't do what you're doing.

First thing is that one post per day is just too few. You can have two totally legit. posts in the same day--Esp. if you are sitting in front of your computer, spending your time on apolyton. Are you going to force people to wait until tomarow to post? Besides, what is tomarow? Tomarow in <u>which timezone</u>? It might be tomarow, and a person still might not be able to post...

More importantly, this defies your own rules. According to the 'new' rules of apolyton, you can't post on a thread that has more than or equal to 150 posts. <u>THIS COULD, HOWEVER, PREVENT SOMEONE FROM OPENING A NEW THREAD TO CONTINUE DISCUSSION!!</u> Problems with this would be especially prevaliant where a specific chain or thread of threads 'belonged' to one persion (like the coffie shop threads and mao). If a new thread wasn't started by someone who hadn't posted yet, then, in effect, you would be forcing people to continue to post on the old thread and risk banning, OR NOT POST AT ALL. Saying 'NOT POST AT ALL' wouldn't really be fair, so you'll have to ammend that rule. Furthermore, many people would be hesadint to use their one and only post on starting a continuation, so, in all licklyhood, a perfectly good, honest thread could be distroyed by these two polacys.


MarkG, we really need a reply on the second point, because we need to know what to do. Please don't ignore this post (which you do sometimes).

In conclusion:
GS: Should you ever update your list (or make a new one), then put me on the 'agianst'.

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adaMada
adamada@springmail.com
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by adaMada (edited June 15, 2000).]</font>

	16-06-2000 02:25									#21
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

1) noone will be banned for posting on a thread after the 150th post. we never said anything like this. the opposite has been posted several times

2) I'm sure in a thread with 150 posts there will be a participant who hasnt started a thread in that day and will be able to start the new one. in the bottom line, ask the moderator to do it...

	16-06-2000 02:31									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by MarkG on 06-15-2000 05:25 PM</font>
1) noone will be banned for posting on a thread after the 150th post. we never said anything like this. the opposite has been posted several times

2) I'm sure in a thread with 150 posts there will be a participant who hasnt started a thread in that day and will be able to start the new one. in the bottom line, ask the moderator to do it...
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Banned? You're right, I was exaggerating. You can, however, get in trouble for posting well beyond the 150th post, and you're new rules are going to force people to do this. Not every time, but its bound to happen some time.

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adaMada
adamada@springmail.com

	16-06-2000 02:34									#23
	Increase Your PM Length

People may be unwilling to use their 'thread du jour' on someone elses topic! They may want it for an interesting debate they themselves want to make but can't think of at the time.

	16-06-2000 02:43									#24
	Inflate your Upload Space

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>You can, however, get in trouble for posting well beyond the 150th post
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>when did we say that?

	16-06-2000 02:44									#25
	Put an end to popups!

Put me down for Restricted to 0/person/day in OT.

	16-06-2000 02:50									#26
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Do you not remember black saterday (or was it sunday)?

I might be wrong. It could be more (or less) than 150 posts per thread. I don't remember the exact number. Even if the number is impossably high, it doesn't matter, because the arguement still stands... And we all know that the number isn't impossably high...

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adaMada
adamada@springmail.com
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by adaMada (edited June 15, 2000).]</font>

	16-06-2000 03:00									#27
	Tired of ads?

"The Threadjacking Appreciation Society (TAS) would like to applaud MarkG for his brave, if stupid, decision to restrict thread posting rights on the OT. This should give a new lease of life to our activities."

Posted on behalf of the Committee.



------------------
Founder of the People's Republic of Topics (PROT)

Convenor of the Threadjacking Appreciation Society (new members welcome)

	16-06-2000 03:18									#28
	Tired of ads?

Hey Squid! Can you let EVC know about this. Thanks.

	16-06-2000 03:19									#29
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by adaMada on 06-15-2000 05:50 PM</font>
Do you not remember black saterday (or was it sunday)?

I might be wrong. It could be more (or less) than 150 posts per thread. I don't remember the exact number. Even if the number is impossably high, it doesn't matter, because the arguement still stands... And we all know that the number isn't impossably high...

<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Just defending myself before I'm shouted at--I understand that the bannings Black Saterday/Sunday wasn't about posting beyond the 150th post. I'm just reminding you what the subject of Ming's message was about.

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adaMada
adamada@springmail.com

	16-06-2000 03:38									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Mark...if that's what you want, I suggest we have a "control" group. Tell everyone to email you just for the heck of it once a day. My guess is that you will get exactly as few emails, simply because it's inconvenient to email someone. If you actually CHECK the off-topic, you'll see that someone (I forget who is was, but it wasn't me or UEC) combined a thread about strawberries with one on nuclear power, because he could only do one thread. Did that person mail you? No. Did he have a legitimate complaint? Yes. The fact that you want to complicate things by adding this additional step simply proves that you want to manipulate the facts to ignore the obvious.