02-04-2004 08:01									#1
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Alright, so as not to muddy the waters in the "real" threads, I'm going to just post so random thoughts here. Take it all with a grain of salt, it's just first impressions...

1) We must really trust CoL. While we're completely unprotected on our flanks and have an RoP, they are at least maintaining a minimal garrison. Were they to be bought off by Monkey, they could completely destroy us by trickling "reinforcements to the front, timing it just right to take out CoS, Ciao, Izzardia, Swindon, Coventry, Badcrumble and Silesia in a single blow - the way our roads are built, with the RoP, the only way for them to pass "quickly" to the front places them perfectly to wipe all of those towns out with a single horseman/warrior each. Tactically a no-brainer for them. Meticulously planned, they could nab Corinth and Plymouth on the same turn as well. (It's probably not quite that bad, as the RoP would fall with the Declaration, but they could completely gut us in short order if the price was right.)

2) The unclaimed Iron at the Southern end of the other continent is calling to me. If we could finagle the Lighthouse(GL preferably), I would be in the happy box, though Saltpeter is more important. Still, a settler down there might deserve discussion unless it's already been ruled out. Then again, 30 shields for the settler and two pop, plus 20 for a spearman(preferably 40 for 2) and we could have simply shored up a couple of towns at home.
How does CoL have swordsmen? If they can import Iron, why can't we? Even from a colony-city with a rushed harbor, even if just long enough to upgrade to swords with what we have?

3) 1/12th of our military is playing with barbarians in the SouthWest - why not let that go? Drop a spearman(or town w/spear) 111(or 1111) from Cheeky money and another spear(or town with spear) 112(or 111) from Sexytune. Those are the two points at which the barb horses can move more than 1 tile to approach our "real" cities and instead of tying up a big chunk of our military, we just toss to barb-bait out there so we know when they're coming.

4) Did we start this war? CoL has an awful lot of troops. Fort Siamang should fall with very few casualties. Then I don't know, but FS falls easily, I think. After that, if elimination is CoL's goal, we gotta watch out for #1 again once Monkey is out of the picture. They've got one good core. Izzardia would make a nice second for them.

5) Normally, I'm a huge Horsemen fan. In this situation, though, we're looking at 6.5 techs before they upgrade to a strong unit without Iron. Without Cats, Mercs/Pikes eat horses for lunch. We might want to look at switching from Horses(temporarily or alternating) to Archers for upgrade to Longbows, our only likely 4-attack unit.

6) Assuming CoL doesn't turn on us and we have Saltpeter, we're 3.5 techs from a defender that can hold off CoL in the small numbers we're fielding(again, without Iron).

Basically, the biggest "problem" I have is reconciling our undefended core with that big ole stack of Swordsmen CoL has.
I hope for the following:
1) We have saltpeter. Or two, to appease CoL.
2) Better yet, we have saltpeter AND CoL has their own.
3) We get a GL and can nab enough Iron to update our troops or make a trade deal with someone else to upgrade, but what are the odds someone will sell us Iron?


If this has all been gone over repeatedly, just ignore me. I really just wanted to throw out my first impressions from the save for 390BC. No offense intended to anyone, sometimes a fresh perspective brings up things not noticed due to familiarity.

	02-04-2004 17:56									#2
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1) You mean Monty Python. Who/what is CoL? Anyway, yes we're showing a LOT of trust. So have they, though. They had barb troubles a little while back, and sent us screenies which showed all their "homeland defense" (which is essentially a couple of warriors, and a horse or two) was up in their northeast, fending off barbs. If we had a horse or two ready, we could have offered help and swept in via our RoP to take out several of their core cities... especially since they were in anarchy. Further, they sent us the bulk of their treasury at the time (502 gold, which we need to give back this turn) to protect it.

There is quite a bit of trust between us. I think we both decided that in a game of treachery, we each would like one true ally.

2) Python had iron. It was their supply that allowed them to build a bundle of swords (and we even built one before the damned thing depleted. Unfortunately, we were 2 turns away from upgrading 12 vet warriors).

3) The units we have playing with barbs aren't really particularly important ones (warriors, an archer...), and we are REXing south and west... I wanted that area swept of barbs.

4) The war was Python's idea (check the python diplo thread - it's illuminating), and we went along for the ride. We figured either we cooperated, or they would make the more logical choice and sword rush *us* and we'd get crushed.

5) I had considered archer -> longbow myself, but at this point I'm not sure that's necessary. Horsemen get the front a helluva lot faster, too. I think once we get some sense of when we will get Invention (either via our own research or trade), we can decide on whether to build some archers, and if so, how many.

6) Saltpeter is gonna be key, yeah.

-Arrian

	02-04-2004 18:06									#3
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Ducki, We have a problem with the GL. There is only one sea lane, and it goes through Latin Lover (LL). They are the leaders in this game, and when you look at the corridoor of cities to Tabemono, another of our allies, it looks like the world is being split into two cmaps.

And we're losing.

	02-04-2004 19:59									#4
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We're not losing.

-Arrian

	02-04-2004 20:12									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian 1) You mean Monty Python. Who/what is CoL?

C(something) of Lombard. The frenchies to our North.

quote: Anyway, yes we're showing a LOT of trust. ... There is quite a bit of trust between us. I think we both decided that in a game of treachery, we each would like one true ally.

Knowing you, I figured there was a good reason, but it still concerned me enough to at least bring it up.

quote: 2) Python had iron. It was their supply that allowed them to build a bundle of swords (and we even built one before the damned thing depleted. Unfortunately, we were 2 turns away from upgrading 12 vet warriors).

Ouch. Does the other continent know there's no Iron on ours?

quote: 3) The units we have playing with barbs aren't really particularly important ones (warriors, an archer...), and we are REXing south and west... I wanted that area swept of barbs.

Answer to #4 makes my #3 moot.

quote: 4) The war was Python's idea (check the python diplo thread - it's illuminating), and we went along for the ride. We figured either we cooperated, or they would make the more logical choice and sword rush *us* and we'd get crushed.

That explains a lot. If we along for the ride, then we can just send a "token" military as support. I kinda thought we were more "actively" trying to take down Monkey.

quote: 5) I had considered archer -> longbow myself, but at this point I'm not sure that's necessary. Horsemen get the front a helluva lot faster, too. I think once we get some sense of when we will get Invention (either via our own research or trade), we can decide on whether to build some archers, and if so, how many. 6) Saltpeter is gonna be key, yeah.

If the tech pace remains "similar" - i.e. 12-15 turns per tech, ~80 turns (~12-15 less if we're cooperating on the lower branch) to find out where Saltpeter is actually makes a lot of sense - more than a big Longbow buildup.

Really, I guess about all of my concerns really hinged on just how much trust we have for CoL(I guess Monty Python) to our North. If our trust and cooperation is mutual and strong, all of my concerns(except Saltpeter) really blow away like dust in the wind.

So scratch my "let's build catapults" and my "let's settle an Iron colony-town" thoughts. I'd still like to see a town near the river cow down by the coast, though.

Do we have any idea what MP's(CoL?) expansion plans are for their second core? They're really boxed in and we're really in the way. Eventually, I think we have a big red bulls-eye on our backs. Eventually.

Thanks for the clarifications, I'll go read the diplo thread today and whatever else I can catch up on.


p.s. Too bad about the sea lanes, though I can't imagine the other continent would have taken too kindly to us dropping down over there. It was just a thought on how to get some more current troops, even if we just settled, upgraded, then "un-settled". Oh well.

	03-04-2004 07:55									#6
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Alright, the "Print" version of these pages don't work(just like these forums won't show subscribed on the Control Panel), but I printed out the Python contact page.
Having reached printed page 97(discussing the placement of the barracks city we would gift to Python south of Plymouth), I would pretty much say "Ignore this entire thread." That's some seriously deep stuff going on there. I don't know how you swung a lot of that stuff, Arrian, but nice diplo work.

	03-04-2004 21:40									#7
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quote: Do we have any idea what MP's(CoL?) expansion plans are for their second core? They're really boxed in and we're really in the way. Eventually, I think we have a big red bulls-eye on our backs. Eventually.

Castle de Lombard / France / Monty Python are known in the game as Python.

The plan is for Python to build their second core in Monkeyland, where we will help them with a palace-jump if they don't get a GL. CoD's policy has always been to maintain a strong alliance with Python.

We agreed to hit Monkey with them partly because usually in these games you're either in a conspiracy/alliance to hit someone else or some else is conspiring/allying to hit you. It was either us or Monkey - the fact that we were good allies from the start of the game meant we had first refusal on being one of the two surviving civs on our continent (Comedia).

Also, as Eddie Izzard owes 90% of his success to the surrealist humour of Monty Python (most of his voices are from Python), us and them are 'culturally linked').

	03-04-2004 21:41									#8
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well, obviously not the James Mason voice

	03-04-2004 21:41									#9
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or the Sean Connery

	04-04-2004 23:39									#10
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Arrian, OK, sorry, we're not losing. It seems that this game is going to be hard to win.

	07-04-2004 09:20									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus or the Sean Connery

Mrs. Badcrumble certainly has more than a twinge of Terry Jones about her, though, doesn't she?

	07-04-2004 17:23									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Krill Arrian, OK, sorry, we're not losing. It seems that this game is going to be hard to win.

Indeed.

I'd give us... one chance in seven [/connery voice]



-Arrian

	07-04-2004 17:54									#13
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The English are generally considered the weakest Civ in the PTW box, so winning was always going to be tough.

I actually think that having fun while trying to play well is more important than winning.

	07-04-2004 18:46									#14
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Definitely. Our civ choice is somewhat of a handicap (though our expansionist trait did at least provide a settler. Finding one sooner & closer to home would have been more powerful, but you can't will 'em all).

Have fun, play well, and hope for the best. That's my attitude.

-Arrian

p.s. Anyone recognize my Connery quote? Hint: in the movie, he says "Personally, I give us one chance in three."