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Santiago_Claus is offline Santiago_Claus
Warlord

Mar 2004
time: 05:35
  Old Post 05-04-2004 03:51
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#31 Report this post to a moderator
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CEO Aaron is right: Command Centers are vital when you have to shift your economy to a war footing, and 2 isn't nearly enough.

Sometimes you don't have time to wait for 2 "core bases" to build enough gear to keep your butt alive.

I'm thinking 8 "core bases" with CC's is a much more comfortable number. You only need 1 Skunkworks, but 2 CC's is being ... a bit overconfident.

Oh, and one other thing: never re-home a unit until you've a Children's Creche up in the target base, or morale will degrade.

Jamski is offline Jamski
Deity
lol ED&D is officially full PvP LOL
May 2002
time: 05:35
  Old Post 05-04-2004 03:54
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quote:
Sometimes you don't have time to wait for 2 "core bases" to build enough gear to keep your butt alive.


This is why I'm against CCs. They're not cost effective. The trade is basically +2 Morale, or +2 units - FOR EACH BASE THAT BUILDS ONE.

If eight bases built units instead of CCs, your army would be pretty impressive.

(I assume building shells and upgrading, to save time and cost)

-Jam

Barinthus is offline Barinthus
King
A Magical Moment...
Jan 2004
time: 21:35
  Old Post 05-04-2004 04:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamski
I assume building shells and upgrading, to save time and cost

-Jam


It's cheaper to build a basic unit then upgrade it instead of building the whole thing in the first place? Can you illustrate this?

Thanks

Skanky Burns is offline Skanky Burns
Deity
Skanky Bastard Quartermaster
Aug 2001
time: 14:35
  Old Post 05-04-2004 05:55
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quote:
Originally posted by GeoModder
Yes, that can happen. Will learn you to protect vulnerable facilities better.

You can rebuild one, but IIRC, you'll have to pay upkeep for it then.


Nah, it is still free. I just conquered a large portion of the Spartans and Gaians using the Uni, and for some reason some bases didn't get NetNodes. So I built them myself. No upkeep costs for NetNodes in my entire empire, always a nice thing.

Last edited by Skanky Burns on 05-04-2004 at 06:40

Trithemius is offline Trithemius
Prince
Canberra, Australia
May 2003
time: 14:35
  Old Post 05-04-2004 12:21
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quote:
Originally posted by GeoModder
Isn't it +1 Research and +1 Planet for the progenitors?


That is what I thought. It's great if you are being a cheesy bastard and playing the Usurpers.

Judaa Marr: Nerve-gas. To love the smell of in: Morning.

Barinthus is offline Barinthus
King
A Magical Moment...
Jan 2004
time: 21:35
  Old Post 05-04-2004 13:12
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Much better than naplam, indeed

Jamski is offline Jamski
Deity
lol ED&D is officially full PvP LOL
May 2002
time: 05:35
  Old Post 05-04-2004 13:26
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quote:
It's cheaper to build a basic unit then upgrade it instead of building the whole thing in the first place? Can you illustrate this?


Give me time to get the numbers together, then yes.

-Jam

GeoModder is offline GeoModder
Emperor
The most erratic Overlord!
Jan 2004
time: 06:35
  Old Post 05-04-2004 13:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Skanky Burns
Nah, it is still free. I just conquered a large portion of the Spartans and Gaians using the Uni, and for some reason some bases didn't get NetNodes. So I built them myself. No upkeep costs for NetNodes in my entire empire, always a nice thing.


And you also rebuilded one AFTER destruction by native life?

Skanky Burns is offline Skanky Burns
Deity
Skanky Bastard Quartermaster
Aug 2001
time: 14:35
  Old Post 05-04-2004 14:06
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Not recently. I'm Talented.

GeoModder is offline GeoModder
Emperor
The most erratic Overlord!
Jan 2004
time: 06:35
  Old Post 05-04-2004 14:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Skanky Burns
Not recently. I'm Talented.


Like Miyuki Jaydo?

Skanky Burns is offline Skanky Burns
Deity
Skanky Bastard Quartermaster
Aug 2001
time: 14:35
  Old Post 05-04-2004 14:56
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More like the difficulty level I play at, fortunately.

Barinthus is offline Barinthus
King
A Magical Moment...
Jan 2004
time: 21:35
  Old Post 05-04-2004 21:02
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No problem, Jamski. I appericate it very much .

johndmuller is offline johndmuller
King
Capitol Hill, Colony of DC
Feb 2001
time: 00:35
  Old Post 06-04-2004 04:42
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Jam, very kind of you to compile all this info .

Would you consider collecting them into a downloadable document for everyone's convenience?

----------------------------

Regarding Creches

In addition to the base defense benefits, a Creche can also mitigate SE related penalties to the morale of units based there. Typically, this would be a +1 morale when running Wealth. (This value can be lost or gained when a unit is rehomed, so beware of rehoming your defenders too soon into new bases.)

In combination with Military Facilities, Monoliths, and the 'Trained' attribute, a faction without intrinsic morale adjustments can manage to get as get their units as high as 'Commando' morale, not including combat related boosts. (Of course, aircraft cannot be monolith-upgraded, so they would top-out at 'Veteran' morale.)

I believe that NL base defenders get perhaps excessive benefits as they may receive some of the Creches penalty-mitigating benefits despite not having incurred the penalties when constructed. Also, units of morale-penalized faction such as Gaia may not receive the full SE penalties when built (the morale bottoms out at 'very-green' without possibly sparing them some of the penalty), but they may nevertheless receive the full mitigations.

Jamski is offline Jamski
Deity
lol ED&D is officially full PvP LOL
May 2002
time: 05:35
  Old Post 06-04-2004 05:22
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quote:
Would you consider collecting them into a downloadable document for everyone's convenience?


Sure, no problem. What format would people prefer? And .doc is not a format, its a virus

I'll also collect these comments together after each "flashcard" if I get time this week.

-Jam

Sikander is offline Sikander
King
Boulder, Colorado, United Snakes of America
Jan 2000
time: 22:35
  Old Post 06-04-2004 07:41
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#45 Report this post to a moderator
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One more comment about the Command Center. It helps heal land units faster, which on occasion has been a boon to me. Of course one shouldn't play with such last ditch defenses at the forefront of their thoughts, but nonetheless it does accrue a small benefit to this facility.

Jamski is offline Jamski
Deity
lol ED&D is officially full PvP LOL
May 2002
time: 05:35
  Old Post 06-04-2004 12:36
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Does anyone know exactly what the healing rates are?

-Jam

GeneralTacticus is offline GeneralTacticus
Emperor
of Melbourne, Australia
Dec 2001
time: 15:35
  Old Post 06-04-2004 12:38
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#47 Report this post to a moderator
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IIRC, inside a base, the rate is 30% per turn... outside, it seems to be 10% most of the time, and occasionally 20%.

Jamski is offline Jamski
Deity
lol ED&D is officially full PvP LOL
May 2002
time: 05:35
  Old Post 06-04-2004 12:40
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#48 Report this post to a moderator
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And with a Command Center, that becomes 100% healed? Or are they not as good as that?

(A man who always plans attacks around monoliths)

-Jam

GeneralTacticus is offline GeneralTacticus
Emperor
of Melbourne, Australia
Dec 2001
time: 15:35
  Old Post 06-04-2004 12:41
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Yes, they're always healed back to full hit points.

Dis is offline Dis
Emperor
Las Vegas, Nevada
Feb 2000
time: 21:35
  Old Post 07-04-2004 01:51 Visit Dis's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by GeoModder


And you also rebuilded one AFTER destruction by native life?


I rebuilt mine after being destroyed by native life. I can load up a save game and check. I pretty much had to rebuild one since I have the Virtual World, and I need that Hologram theatre.

just checked on of my saved games. It shows 56 network nodes at +0 energy/yr on the F4 screen.

That was one of my older save games too. I ended up with many more bases. I ended up nuking a lot of them. That was probably the only time I nuked the whole world and kept playing (I usually reloading after seeing what they did). I used like 8 or 9 fusion planet busters. Maybe 10.

okay, I have a shocking admission. I reloaded after they nuked my capitol and one other city (they were 2 tiles apart). I lost like 7 wonders at once including the virtual world. Normally I don't reload, but it would have been too much a pain in the ass building hologram theatres in that many cities, so I reloaded and did a preemptive on the peacekeepers.

Why is it always the peackeepers in my games who nuke me? In all my games it is always the peackeepers.

Last edited by Dis on 07-04-2004 at 02:00

CEO Aaron is offline CEO Aaron
Prince
Everything has its price. Even you.
Aug 2002
time: 05:35
  Old Post 07-04-2004 01:53
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#51 Report this post to a moderator
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This is why aggressive factions REALLY like the Command Nexxus. One turn after seizing an enemy base, your attacking units can move in for immediate repair. It's of less use to someone using a builder strategy, but high mobility units like rovers and hovertanks can peek out to harrass invading units, and fall back for quick repairs.

GeoModder is offline GeoModder
Emperor
The most erratic Overlord!
Jan 2004
time: 06:35
  Old Post 07-04-2004 02:07
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Because peacekeepers wants to rule the world, nothing else.

Snowflake is offline Snowflake
Princess
falling, once again
Apr 2003
time: 23:35
  Old Post 07-04-2004 03:02
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#53 Report this post to a moderator
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quote:
Originally posted by DataAeolus


It's cheaper to build a basic unit then upgrade it instead of building the whole thing in the first place? Can you illustrate this?

Thanks


My experience is that upgrading shell unit normally is more expensive than building a unit fresh. For example a police unit costs the same with a scout but it costs you 10ec to upgrade a scout to a police. To upgrade a 1-1-8 chopper to 6-1-8 chopper costs 90ecs and IIRC the cost of building the 6-1-8 chopper is less than that.

The only occasion I see upgrading may be preferrable is when you need to rush build a unit where you haven't have its first row built, it might be very expensive to rush it, and upgrading may end up to be cheaper.

Santiago_Claus is offline Santiago_Claus
Warlord

Mar 2004
time: 05:35
  Old Post 07-04-2004 04:02
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The half-price nanoupgrade SP is unbelievable in that regard; you can "morph" entire armies at fairly low cost. This provides a battlefield flexibility not entirely obvious when you first build the SP. (Switching an invasion force between amphibious and drop pods, for instance, or trading nerve gas for soap gas when sunspot activity ends. * whistles * )

johndmuller is offline johndmuller
King
Capitol Hill, Colony of DC
Feb 2001
time: 00:35
  Old Post 07-04-2004 06:12
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One's Industry rating has something to do with the relative merits also; if you are running Power or otherwise handicapped industrially, the upgrade costs can be more appealing as compared to someone with reduced Industry ratings.

Chaos Theory is offline Chaos Theory

King
Missouri / Misery; CC
Oct 2002
time: 04:35
  Old Post 07-04-2004 10:14 Visit Chaos Theory<br><a href=/members><img src=/forums/images/supporter-icon.gif border=0></a><BR>'s homepage!
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#56 Report this post to a moderator
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The cost of an upgrade is:
10 * (new weapon - old weapon) + 10 * (new armor - old armor) + 10 * new unit mineral rows

Therefore, in upgrading a 1-1-8 chopper to a 6-1-8 chopper, assuming 0 industry, you pay half the new unit's cost, plus 50. This can be very advantageous when you want to produce an army quickly, since units are expensive to hurry. Furthermore, you can exploit the fact that "Trained" sticks when individual units are upgrades.

Skanky Burns is offline Skanky Burns
Deity
Skanky Bastard Quartermaster
Aug 2001
time: 14:35
  Old Post 07-04-2004 10:15
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How do special abilities fit in with regards to cost?

Sikander is offline Sikander
King
Boulder, Colorado, United Snakes of America
Jan 2000
time: 22:35
  Old Post 07-04-2004 12:58
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quote:
Originally posted by HongHu


My experience is that upgrading shell unit normally is more expensive than building a unit fresh. For example a police unit costs the same with a scout but it costs you 10ec to upgrade a scout to a police. To upgrade a 1-1-8 chopper to 6-1-8 chopper costs 90ecs and IIRC the cost of building the 6-1-8 chopper is less than that.

The only occasion I see upgrading may be preferrable is when you need to rush build a unit where you haven't have its first row built, it might be very expensive to rush it, and upgrading may end up to be cheaper.


Two things. If you are relatively cash rich and mineral poor you play to your strength by upgrading. Secondly, upgrading trained shells often makes my units elite, which with infantry doubles their movement. This may also be the only way to get sea and air units elite, even if you use monoliths to get that last morale upgrade for your land units. So, as with most things in the game, it depends.

Jamski is offline Jamski
Deity
lol ED&D is officially full PvP LOL
May 2002
time: 05:35
  Old Post 07-04-2004 13:34
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Speed of building a decent army is the main factor that decides an otherwise close contest, not to mention that I normally have more cash than minerals.

I'm sticking with my "upgrading shell units is better" philosophy.

-Jam

Trithemius is offline Trithemius
Prince
Canberra, Australia
May 2003
time: 14:35
  Old Post 07-04-2004 14:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamski
Speed of building a decent army is the main factor that decides an otherwise close contest, not to mention that I normally have more cash than minerals.

I'm sticking with my "upgrading shell units is better" philosophy.


Maximising energy, and thus cash, production would seem to be more universally useful too, right?

(I'm working on my strategy for when my computer finally clears quarantine...)

 
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