03-04-2004 07:59									#1
	Comments on Jamski's Facilities Guide Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Great job by Jamski putting together the new guide. He asked that we start a separate thread to discuss the contents, so here goes!

Command Centers: Here are some tips that I picked up reading this board over the years:

Build CCs in just one or two bases (assuming that you don't get the Command Nexus). Use these bases to crank out your early army. Rehome the units to other bases to distribute the support load. They won't lose their morale boost. That's only until you get clean reactors, of course. I add "(CC)" after the base name so I can remember which ones have the CCs. This technique defrays the cost of having to pay maintenance for lots of CCs.

	03-04-2004 15:00									#2
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Keep this stuff coming, I'll put it all in. I figure there can't be too many words

-Jam

	03-04-2004 21:38									#3
	Re: Comments on Jamski's Facilities Guide Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Petek Great job by Jamski putting together the new guide. He asked that we start a separate thread to discuss the contents, so here goes! Command Centers: Here are some tips that I picked up reading this board over the years: Build CCs in just one or two bases (assuming that you don't get the Command Nexus). Use these bases to crank out your early army. Rehome the units to other bases to distribute the support load. They won't lose their morale boost. That's only until you get clean reactors, of course. I add "(CC)" after the base name so I can remember which ones have the CCs. This technique defrays the cost of having to pay maintenance for lots of CCs.

Perhaps you should build skunkworks in the same bases, or was that said in Jamski's guide? I just saw it last night, and I didn't have time to read the hole thing. Read about the first three facilities, and I was already amazed. Good job Jamski!!

	03-04-2004 21:59									#4
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Skunkworks coming soon. I did them last night I didn't give them a good review

-Jam

	03-04-2004 23:00									#5
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Yeah, I don't really see Skunkworks as being useful. Why build a facility to decrease the cost of prototypes when you can just cash crawlers in to speed production? Plus, I'm sure they have a maintainence cost, so building one just drags your bottom line down a couple of energy/turn without giving you any real benefit.

	03-04-2004 23:11									#6
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btw, excellent guide Jamski!

Also, concerning the Citizens Defense Force:

I've noticed that it is NOT a complete waste to get it with the Hive. The nice thing is that, when you have it, you can scrap all of your base's original Perimeter Defenses, and any new bases you build or conquer, you can scrap the Perimeters in those too, yeilding you something like 30 credits/per each Perimeter scrapped. (Although you better be pretty sure that you'll never lose that base, or else you'll be stuck without any Perimeters.) So, The Citizens Defense Force pretty much pays for itself right off the bat with the Hive.

Of course, if you have to choose between the CDF and another SP, you should probably build the other one first, but by no means is the CDF a waste as the Hive.

	03-04-2004 23:18									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Zeiter btw, excellent guide Jamski! Also, concerning the Citizens Defense Force: I've noticed that it is NOT a complete waste to get it with the Hive. The nice thing is that, when you have it, you can scrap all of your base's original Perimeter Defenses,

facilities who are faction specific can't be scrapped as far as I know. Uni can't scrap network nodes, Hive can't scrap perimeter defenses, Pïrates can't scrap naval yards.

	03-04-2004 23:22									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Zeiter btw, excellent guide Jamski! Also, concerning the Citizens Defense Force: I've noticed that it is NOT a complete waste to get it with the Hive. The nice thing is that, when you have it, you can scrap all of your base's original Perimeter Defenses

I thought that facilities received as a faction power cannot be scrapped. Elaborate this.

	03-04-2004 23:26									#9
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Command Centers: 1 or 2 is good to crank out garrisons, but if you're in a real shooting war, you need more of your bases producing units. Once you get Air power, you can make certain bases produce your ground units, and the rest crank out Noodles/Missiles/Choppers, reducing the total amount of Command Centers you need. If you're running Wealth, and plan to continue (Yang, for example), don't bother with CC's, they're only worth half the benefit.

Skunkworks: Only really worthwhile for one base, if you like to build expensive prototypes often. Generally, a waste. Would the savings you'd see on a Fusion PB prototype offset the cost of making Skunkworks first? Would upgrading a crawler or two with cash be cheaper still?

CDF and the Hive: The best reason to build this is to deprive some other faction of it.

	03-04-2004 23:30									#10
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I don't know, if you build one, and upgrade EVERY new weapon type you can in that base, it might be worth it compared to every time you proto a new weapon use crawlers for hurrying it. Producing those crawlers takes turns as well in other bases...

	04-04-2004 01:20									#11
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Dosent a Skunkwords alow you to switch production in the base without paying any retooling cost, much like changing from one project to another. That flexibility might be usefull in an emergency situation (ofcorse your best off avoiding Emergencies in the first place)


Also though that Faction specific facilites couldnt be scrapped. But I do know that if another faction (say the Cycons) has the Secret Project for a Facility (say the MCC) were to capture the base of a faction that has that facility inheriently (say the Pirates) then they can scrap the "real" Facility for its full value and still use the "ghost" SP version they have. This can make conquest quite profitable.

	04-04-2004 01:24									#12
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quote: Originally posted by obstructor I thought that facilities received as a faction power cannot be scrapped. Elaborate this.

I'm not so sure about new bases but IIRC vaguelly, as the HIVE whenever I conquer a base from some other faction that already has perimeter defense, I was able to scrap that facility and my CDF defense remains in the place.

	04-04-2004 01:57									#13
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Yes, that's correct, your inherent facilities so to speak overshadow it, and you can make a profit by the 'left behind' facility of the former owner.

But there is something else as well:

Imagine you took a base with a existing perimeter defense, and you have de CDF. You don't scrap it, and the next turn a probe destroys your perimeter defense. But suddenly you see that only 1 of the 2 has been destroyed, the second one still exists.

on a sour looking counter attacker then.

	04-04-2004 02:56									#14
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You dont see 2 of the facility in the list under any surcumstances. The differnce is that when their is an redundancey you see a small asterick * after the name, this is the "PLEASE SCRAP ME FOR PAINLESS ENERGY CREDITS" asterick and should imediatly be acted upon because as long as you feel your Secret Project base (or its a faction based facility) thier is absolutly no downside to scraping that redundant facility.

I have had some games ware I was Morgan and built the PEG and scraped all my old Energy Banks for enough Credits to IMEDIATLY repay the cost of the project! Thats what I call return on investment.

	04-04-2004 03:08									#15
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Yes, but for perimeter defenses their's no quick need, they don't cost upkeep anyway...

	04-04-2004 03:22									#16
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quote: Skunkworks: Only really worthwhile for one base, if you like to build expensive prototypes often. Generally, a waste. Would the savings you'd see on a Fusion PB prototype offset the cost of making Skunkworks first? Would upgrading a crawler or two with cash be cheaper still?

Dunno, I'm still working on the maths. At the moment my answer is "It depends" Basically using crawlers to build prototypes faster is only giving you turn advantage, not giving you savings. Upgrading crawlers means ... well, wait and see

Regarding scrapping redundant facs - this can be done with Perimiters, Energy Banks, Naval Yards, Aerospace Complexes, Command Centers, Bioenhancement Centers (just off the top of my head) so it got left out of discussions of individual facilities.

If you built enough Energy Banks that scrapping them paid for the PEG, then you have LOST MONEY and turn advantage in a huge way. Massivily inefficient play.

-Jam

	04-04-2004 04:25									#17
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No I ment that I had already built several Energy Banks but later built the PEG and thus scraped all the obsolete Energy Banks, it was a lage slow tec game so I had about 5 energy banks before I got the PEG built and I belive its 80 Credits for scraping, which would roughly translate to equaling the cost of building the Project.

	04-04-2004 05:44									#18
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I know what you meant, but its >40 credits for scrapping, and unless you had those energy banks earn you at least 121 ec + 1 ec/turn untill scrapped (which I doubt) you lost credits on balance.

Not to mention wasting your build queues in the early game - an unforgiveable sin.

BUT, if you were playing vs humans you can't be sure of getting the PEG, so perhaps this could be justified.

-Jam

	04-04-2004 14:09									#19
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I dont' know where else to ask this so I'll ask it here.

What does the Manifold Nexus do? I can't remember. I don't ever remember building on it. It's not listed in the civilpedia (or whatever it's called in the SMAC game)

Maybe next, Jamski could do a terraforming guide .

	04-04-2004 14:37									#20
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Manifold Nexus, it's a SMAX feature, I believe.

I believe someone else already did a terraforming guide. I have it at work. However it's possible that strageties have evolved so perhaps a update would be good.

	04-04-2004 16:46									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident What does the Manifold Nexus do?

It gives +1 PLANET in your SE if it is within your borders.

I thought, but I'm not completely sure, that in patch 4 of SMAC it already exists as well. Or was that the Borehole Cluster

	04-04-2004 17:46									#22
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It IS the Borehole Cluster you're thinking of. The Manifold Nexus only comes in with the Aliens in SMAX.

	04-04-2004 17:47									#23
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You ARE thinking of the Boreholes. The Manifold Nexus only comes in with the Aliens in SMAX.

	04-04-2004 21:49									#24
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt You ARE thinking of the Boreholes. The Manifold Nexus only comes in with the Aliens in SMAX.

That is incorrect. MN appeared to in patches, along with Borehole Cluster. It even had a special interlude.

	04-04-2004 23:05									#25
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quote: Originally posted by GeoModder facilities who are faction specific can't be scrapped as far as I know. Uni can't scrap network nodes, Hive can't scrap perimeter defenses, Pïrates can't scrap naval yards.

Whoops! Okay, I tried it out, and you are right, facilities that come with a faction can't be scrapped. In that case, the only good of the CDF as the Hive is to keep someone else from having it.

I guess I was thinking of when you are someone other than Yang, and you get the CDF. In that case, when you capture one of his bases, you can scrap the old Hive perimeter and you'll still have one, thanks to the CDF. That can be quite profitable.

	05-04-2004 00:40									#26
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quote: Originally posted by obstructor That is incorrect. MN appeared to in patches, along with Borehole Cluster. It even had a special interlude.

yep, I saw the interlude. And I don't have SMACX

I do believe it was with one of the patches, which may explain why it's not in the help civilpedia thingy. Although perhaps they wanted it to remain mysterious.

sorry. end of threadjack.

[/threadjack]

	05-04-2004 00:43									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Zeiter Whoops! Okay, I tried it out, and you are right, facilities that come with a faction can't be scrapped. In that case, the only good of the CDF as the Hive is to keep someone else from having it. I guess I was thinking of when you are someone other than Yang, and you get the CDF. In that case, when you capture one of his bases, you can scrap the old Hive perimeter and you'll still have one, thanks to the CDF. That can be quite profitable.

but the mind worms can destroy such facilities. Just the other night a mindworm killed my defender and then destroyed my network node as I was playing as the University.

	05-04-2004 00:52									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident but the mind worms can destroy such facilities. Just the other night a mindworm killed my defender and then destroyed my network node as I was playing as the University.

Yes, that can happen. Will learn you to protect vulnerable facilities better.

You can rebuild one, but IIRC, you'll have to pay upkeep for it then.

	05-04-2004 03:42									#29
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Re Manifold Nexus : If playing as one of the alien factions you get +1 Research on the SE instead.

quote: Maybe next, Jamski could do a terraforming guide

I'm not halfway through this one yet, hold your horses

-Jam

	05-04-2004 03:46									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Re Manifold Nexus : If playing as one of the alien factions you get +1 Research on the SE instead.

Isn't it +1 Research and +1 Planet for the progenitors?