05-04-2004 23:40									#31
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Rovers with a high offensive weapon. With every successfull attack collateral damage is done to the remaining believer units in that stack. That way it gets easier every new attack. I think 3 is a bit little, but it certainly damages a lot of that stack.

	06-04-2004 00:32									#32
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quote: I never thought that this game is so hard. I always rely on the government except for university base

First thing to do : NEVER EVER use the governor at any time for any reason.

quote: I usually have 2-3 units per base.

Unless you're running a Police State, what purpose are all these units serving?

-Jam

	06-04-2004 00:55									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Unless you're running a Police State, what purpose are all these units serving? -Jam

What do you mean?

	06-04-2004 01:40									#34
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Why do you have 2-3 units in every base, costing you minerals, both to build and support, if you're not running a Poilice State? And if you're playing as the Uni, you really shouldn't be running a Police State. What are you DOING with all these units?

-Jam

	06-04-2004 01:51									#35
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Fending off a Believer attack, I guess?

	06-04-2004 02:01									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Why do you have 2-3 units in every base, costing you minerals, both to build and support, if you're not running a Poilice State? And if you're playing as the Uni, you really shouldn't be running a Police State. What are you DOING with all these units? -Jam

I agree with Jamski-- Why have so many units fighting the AI?? The best plan is to have fewer high morale and higher weapon (ie upgraded) rovers that hits an enemy on the way in. Used correctly you can create a road network out to a kill zone ( poor defensive terrain the AI must cross). My best ambushes have seen me kill dozens of AI troops without loss . . . Move up the road-- shoot once and retreat-- generally if you have 2-3 rovers available each turn (fully healthy) to shoot, you can kill or severely damage everything coming at you.


Another simple strategy is to selectively upgrade your troops-- Send a laser troop wormkilling for the morale boosts, then bring it home, visit a monolith for that last boost (I often find the last morale upgrade is the hardest to get) and then upgrade-- A shiny new elite missile rover can kill hordes of enemies LOL

	06-04-2004 02:01									#37
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[Double post

	06-04-2004 02:01									#38
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I also wanted to agree again with Jamski on the idea of specialization of bases. It works against the AI and IMHO and can work against humans

A super science base can often bring in a MAJORITY of your energy-- an extra crawler or trawler at a fully developed base can often bring far more benefit than additional facilities at lesser bases. Against the AI these types of super bases can be a HUGE advantage. . . Against humans you have to watch that you don't place all your eggs in one basket since they are more likely to be able to hit at your super-base . . .


Also -- unit building bases make sense. Bases where you crawl minerals and build morale enhancements but never build drone control or energy enhancements-- The base can stay at size 1 (although be careful since a single nerve gas attack kills it) or grow just a little but its sole purpose is to send out units. IN more developed empires, I may have several of these-- say two for ground troops, 3-4 for air and maybe even 1 with a naval yard.

Its great to limit your drone problems if you want to go FM. Support can be a concern but with big mineral production its really only an issue of an additional few ec to rush the thing.

Last edited by Flubber on 06-04-2004 at 02:13

	06-04-2004 02:06									#39
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Jamski, I don't see your point about the Police State thing. The units, while not necessarily serving as police, serve as defense. When you are under a missile attack by the aliens, you'll be thankful for those units. Or when miriam comes to attack you with fifteen 2-2-2s, again, you'll be glad to have them. Yes, they may cost minerals, and yes, you might want to disband them and hurry the units when you need them, but once you get Bioengineering and a clean reactor, why not keep them? There's no point in getting rid of them, if they have a clean reactor. Even if I'm playing Morgan with a democracy, I usually have 2-3 units per base, one former, one speeder, and one garrison. Yes, it costs 3 minerals, and maybe I don't have clean reactors yet, but when Miriam and Yang come to say hello, it's nice to be able to say hi back.

	06-04-2004 02:11									#40
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Keeping them around for defense? Very useful if your rival has a military of 150+ units.. then again, you should have attacked them a long time ago... I, for one, try to get two or three in each base... Clean defenders, that is... A AAA garrison so they can't chop-and-drop, which the AI has done to me multiple times.... A regular ground defender as extra help, and maybe an artillery backup, for hitting up those stupid bombardments... My first advice would be to read the manual 2-4 times, then play as Diedre.... on Citizen....

	06-04-2004 02:16									#41
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On citizen??!

	06-04-2004 02:27									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Commy Jamski, I don't see your point about the Police State thing. The units, while not necessarily serving as police, serve as defense. When you are under a missile attack by the aliens, you'll be thankful for those units. Or when miriam comes to attack you with fifteen 2-2-2s, again, you'll be glad to have them. Yes, they may cost minerals, and yes, you might want to disband them and hurry the units when you need them, but once you get Bioengineering and a clean reactor, why not keep them? There's no point in getting rid of them, if they have a clean reactor. Even if I'm playing Morgan with a democracy, I usually have 2-3 units per base, one former, one speeder, and one garrison. Yes, it costs 3 minerals, and maybe I don't have clean reactors yet, but when Miriam and Yang come to say hello, it's nice to be able to say hi back.

You touched on what I think Jamski's concern is and that is SUPPORT. . . 2-3 units sitting around in bases costing say a mineral each can be a waste.

I know I routinely play the early game with a single unit in most bases with perhaps an additional rover or two to kill encroaching worms. Against an opposing faction, its relatively easy to create kill zones. Even if the AI is peaceful. I will start building a road across any rocky squares in their direction (good defensive territory) with an eye to finding a good ambush spot. Once I find the ambush spot, I stop roading in that direction, sensor the area and wait for the inevitable war as my science and growth outpaces the AI. The AI has no idea how to use units cleverly.

A 20 unit stack you say!! Hit them with any arty if you have it . .. Then your best attacker and retreat-- Next best attacker attacks and retreats-- The you can send out a pretty ordinary attacker to take them out-- Oh and don't forget that if you take heavy damage with an attacker, you can always self destruct . ( Note if you are facing a stack with good defenders on good terrain, it may pay off to self destruct two of your worst moral-high weapon units. If you have missile units, 2 of these will bring everything in the stack down to 40% health . If you can't kill units with 50 % damage or more, why the heck not??)

	06-04-2004 02:32									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Ouro_827 Keeping them around for defense? Very useful if your rival has a military of 150+ units.. then again, you should have attacked them a long time ago... I, for one, try to get two or three in each base... Clean defenders, that is... A AAA garrison so they can't chop-and-drop, which the AI has done to me multiple times.... A regular ground defender as extra help, and maybe an artillery backup, for hitting up those stupid bombardments... My first advice would be to read the manual 2-4 times, then play as Diedre.... on Citizen....

I rarely bother with many AA troops against the AI-- my strategy is generally to build choppers and empty THEIR nearby bases. Against a human, I feel much the same way but its often impossible to get that advantage and AA troops can become a necessity.

If an AI rival had 150 units, it still doesn't change the strategy -- patrol and sensor enough that you see attacks before they come and kill the attackers as they approach your empire. Once in the airpower era, there's hardly anything that has even "good" survivability in the open against the possible attacks, especially if we include the self-destruct tactic.

	06-04-2004 03:20									#44
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Flubber knows what I'm on about

The other point is - if you are at war with the AI, don't defend all your bases in strength. If they're attacking with 20 units and you're defending 20 bases with 20 units (for example) if you put one unit in each base you will lose a series of 20 vs 1 battles.

The solution - bring your forces OUT of the bases and attack the attackers. You may have noticed that most weapons are twice as good as armour of the same tech level - that means its normally best to be the attacker in any fight.

I suggest a quick course in Responsive Defense Doctorine

-Jam

	06-04-2004 04:31									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski The solution - bring your forces OUT of the bases and attack the attackers. You may have noticed that most weapons are twice as good as armour of the same tech level - that means its normally best to be the attacker in any fight. -Jam

I would add "in the open"-- Defence is feasible in bases at certain times and with certain facilities.

I would also say that in the normal tech situation, your TEN units should be able to take out 20 AI units and if you are properly prepared, with only the VERY occasional loss on your part. After all you SHOULD have the advantage of roads and sensors and some high morale troops. Meet them as the come in . . . you have shorter supply lines

UNless the AI is different than I have experienced, they will attack ( in a ground war) in mass stacks or dribbles-- usually following the same routes to their objective with unit after unit. 20 AI units might scare me if I saw some manuevreing but my experience has been unit after unit walking into my ambush until I just have a bunch of elite units that are unassialble until airpower arrives

	06-04-2004 05:18									#46
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quote: Originally posted by d=me mariam did that. how can 2-3 rovers take them?

On a tile one unit is defender (btw, you can also designate a defender yourself - see manual). However if that defender looses, all 19 other units take colateral damage. Second rover takes out another defender, all 18 units take colateral damage. Third units takes out third defender, all 17 units take colateral damage for the third time. I'm not sure here, but maybe 2-4 colateral damages and all units there are dead

	06-04-2004 07:59									#47
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I don't have the manual. and how much extra support should a base pay. Or in other words how many units per base?

	06-04-2004 08:03									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski I suggest a quick course in Responsive Defense Doctorine

Followed by a crash course in Annihilation Concept.

	06-04-2004 10:06									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski I suggest a quick course in Responsive Defense Doctorine -Jam

I have the same problem, I suppose. Any reading materials on this doctrine?

	06-04-2004 12:18									#50
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(General) Von Manstein in the Causacus 1942-3. Find a big heavy and serious book on his retreat to Rostov. The undisputed master of the responsive defense, in complete denial of Hitler's "Stand firm and defend the strongpoints" doctorine.

Basically, the whole thing is about concentration of forces, as you can't hold a line and defend everywhere against an equal number of enemies trying to break through in one place.

What you can do is put out patrols and sensors/intellegece to see where the enemy is planning on attacking, and bring up your full army from the rear areas to meet them. Defend like the Fire Brigade. They don't sit in front of your house in case it burns down, they come when the fire is already started.

-Jam

	06-04-2004 12:23									#51
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Maybe I missed something, but is he saying that he keeps 2-3 units INSIDE the base or BUILT by the base? I usually have 2 units in a base just in case the first one is destroyed by con. missile, Demon Boil swarms, bad luck, etc.

(and to help control drone riots. 1-1-1 Clean Police are cheap)

	06-04-2004 12:35									#52
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He's playing Uni, so let's assume running FM. That means 1 empath rover for every 4-5 bases, and 1 trance trained 1-1-1 unit if the base is near fungus or the coast.

Everything else should get the hell out of those bases and go and take on the attackers. You can't defend an empire at the gates of each base. You'd need

• 2-3 Infantry Air Defense : 1-best-1 AAA
  
• 1-2 Infantry Rover Defense : 1-best-1 ECM
  
• 1+ Interceptor(s)
  
• Worm Defense : 1-1(t)-1
  
• SAM Rover : best-1-2 SAM
  
• Artillery Rover : best-1-2 ART
  
• 1+ Defensive Probe Team(s)
  
• Perimiter Defense
  

	06-04-2004 12:45									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski (General) Von Manstein in the Causacus 1942-3. Find a big heavy and serious book on his retreat to Rostov. The undisputed master of the responsive defense, in complete denial of Hitler's "Stand firm and defend the strongpoints" doctorine.

I thought he was Field Marshal by this time (Third Battle of Kharkov-ish)?

Regardless of that, von Manstein is pretty much the best at this sort of thing.

P.S. Jamski, have you ever played "The Last Victory: Von Manstein's Backhand Blow" now there is a real boardgame!

	06-04-2004 12:46									#54
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Ah, I never played FM successfully. The last time I played with FM, I had so many drones that I just said "Screw You! Get back to work!" and nervestapled them all.

But being Morgan.........yeah, it didn't turn out how I wanted it to.

Any other tips?

	06-04-2004 12:48									#55
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Karkov is in the Ukraine, 1943-4, in the next set of retreats, I believe he was still a General in the Causacus (I may be mistaken)

Sadly not, although just the title sounds good, which reminds me - I found a new copy of Shogun, and it is indeed now called Samurai

-Jam

	06-04-2004 12:56									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Karkov is in the Ukraine, 1943-4, in the next set of retreats, I believe he was still a General in the Causacus (I may be mistaken)

Could be right with that, now that I think about it.

quote: Sadly not, although just the title sounds good, which reminds me - I found a new copy of Shogun, and it is indeed now called Samurai

Literally thousands of cardboard counters (most of them supply markers though...). It even has a high command system to simulate the idiocy of Hitler and Stalin (each staff officer is given a rating that represents their ability to get their own way). It's great!

Curses on the despoilers of Shogun.

	06-04-2004 22:26									#57
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I never run FM.... especially as Uni... not sure if he would... The reason I usually have AAA on hand was several near losses due to quick flips, usually the computer paying my pact mate to attack me... with choppers and needlejets that I had helped them get... that taught me... they wiped out my base defenders, and only by luck that I use magtubes, and they missed a guy, did I manage to save that island...