05-04-2004 00:51									#1
	Larger Maps Support Apolyton

Due to some discussion in the Conquests forum I have decided to create a mod with larger maps. The map sizes are Standard, Large, Huge (these the stock parameters), Enormous (24 civ map), Gigantic (31 civ map). I used the patterns of the parameters from the first three to derive the values for the larger maps, so as far as that is concerned balance shouldn't be an issue. I haven't playtested it yet, though, so if anyone finds any balance issues then please let me know.

If you want the specifics of the Enormous and Gigantic sizes, here they are:

Enormous
Size: 190x190
# Civs: 24
Distance Between Civs: 30
OCN: 44
Tech Rate: 480

Gigantic
Size: 220x220
# Civs: 31
Distance Between Civs: 35
OCN: 51
Tech Rate: 550

One reason I made them at that size was so they also wouldn't kill most machines that tried to play them (not including late game, however). I've found with slight playtesting that the speeds are actually manageable, however there is enough room for each civ to grow to ~6 cities, maybe more with small spacing, and definitely more with wars.

One problem I've found with gigantic maps is that often 3-4 civs will end up on small islands, sometimes even 2 tile islands, though usually big enough for 2 cities. Another problem is the tech rate...every tech at the beginning will take 50 turns, unless I up the max turns to 100, at which point they will then take 80-100 turns. Also, I'm not sure with the current settings, but when testing a couple other settings some civs would spawn literally next to each other, with 1 or 2 groups of 3 civs, with all the rest evenly spread out. If this remains a problem, I will either decrease the distance between civs, enlarge the map slightly, or simply suggest that all gigantic maps be played with 60% water. I haven't tested the enormous map at all yet, though.

This mod requires Conquests, by the way.
Anyways, enough rambling, here's the file:

Attachment: larger maps.zip
This has been downloaded 81 time(s).

	07-04-2004 06:31									#2
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Gee, I can see my idea is very popular

Oh well, it was more of a general interest thing anyways, and just posted it on a whim.

	07-04-2004 07:02									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Don't worry Switch around here 'trash news' is what sells.

Oh and my favorite sized map is 270 by 190 or so. It being Mediterrean centered out a 1000 mile or so each direction, with nine Civs at a time. I like your distance and tech rate. I now set min. tech at 7 and max. 15 with almost no trading. However, stealing is acceptable!

	07-04-2004 10:10									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I'm really not at all distraught over the lack of interest...like I said, I posted it on a whim.
* Switch shrugs.

As to my map settings, I also picked them so that, though being larger, they would keep the feel of the vanilla civ sizes, which I hoped would keep it as balanced as possible.

Anyways, off to bed...err, I mean off to play some more of the Sengoku conquest

	08-04-2004 05:35									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

It is always good to see people made maps and mods, even though I am not fond of large maps.

	10-05-2004 15:21									#6
	Suffering from ads?

Gigantic
Size: 220x220
# Civs: 31
Distance Between Civs: 35
OCN: 51
Tech Rate: 550

These numbers are all wrong by my calculations, and I've done some tests with mine. Even if they were all right, you still need to tweak more than just this to balance a 31 civ game.

Size:
Since going from large to huge is a 30x30 area (100x100 to 130x130, standard to large, and 130x130 to 160x160 from large to huge) and goes up 4 civs (12 to 16), therefore every 4 civs added, adds a 30x30 area. Thus 31 civs (actually I did the calculations on 32) would yield 280x280. I based most of my calcs on this method of "if add 4 civs in vanilla equals this, then do the same until I hit 32 civs."

Distance:
This should be 48 based on an additional 6 for each 4 civs added, though it doesn't seem to matter much between 36 and 48. Do a few test runs in the editor, and you'll see what I mean.

OCN:
You've raised this based on the other traits, which would seem to be correct... but corruption is almost totally wiped out by the industrial ages if you raise this. You should actually probably lower it or keep it at 36 (though see below). Another reason to lower this is so you don't have 31 cities with 51 cities each (average here), which would break the max number of cities, 51*31=1581.

Tech Rate:
In vanilla, this is a gap of 80 per four civs added so you need to add 320 to the 400 at huge map size for a total of 720, not 550.

Now, I mentioned that there was more to tweak than just these numbers. What I've found in my tests so far is that the ancient and middle ages stay fairly well on track technologically, then by the very end of the middle ages / beginning of industrial you are researching techs at the minimum of 4 turns per tech. So you have to up the cost of middle age techs (after the first tier or so), and beyond by at least 10%. Also by this time corruption tends to be a non-issue though this is because I never did find the correct OCN to work with. I went so far as to use 28, which, if I remember correctly, was fairly close.

Enough rambling. If you're interested in getting these numbers right, let me know and we can work on it together if you'd like. Just let me know in this thread, I'll check back later

Last edited by alms66 on 26-05-2004 at 11:53

	18-05-2004 15:10									#7
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

alms66, you're forgetting that the larger size means "squared" area.

so going from 100x100 to 130x130 doesn't mean a 30x30 area addition, but in fact 30*30 + 2*(100*30)... which is a 69% growth.

from 130x130 to 160x160 is a area 51% growth, and so on.

so with 160x160 (12800 tiles) and 16 civs, each civ has an average of 800 tiles (including sea&ocean). for 31civs with the same many tiles, you'd need 24800tiles which is a 223x223 map... so in fact switchs number is perfect from this point of view

the OCN and the distances do seem a little off...

	20-05-2004 00:59									#8
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Well...It does seem that I made some calculation errors. I guess I made the distance, ocn, etc. calculations as if the map sizes were increasing by 4, as opposed to eight. I'll try to get correct versions up soon.

Thanks for noticing the errors

	20-05-2004 10:15									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Love those Gigantic maps. Bigger, the better I always say . What kills the enjoyment of them, besides hardware limitations, is the game city number limit (512). Any way around that?

	21-05-2004 09:49									#10
	Put an end to popups!

I seem to remember a program (available in the civ directory, I think) that literally hacks into the executable and eliminates limits such as that. It might effect the city limit, or it might not. I think it's also updated for C3C (what version, I don't know). You might want to look it up and give it a try.

If it's not in the directory, it could've been at CFC.