05-04-2004 06:58									#1
	Land Improvement Boring? Full PM-box? Change here!

Hello,

I've been playing Civ 3 for a while now. Long time lurker in these forums. I post every once in a while, lol. This is one of those times. I find that I play Civ and I have on times and off times. I'll play viciously for 1 month or a few weeks and then stop for months. Every time that I leave its because I get bored of moving my 50+ workers around the map and working every tile. In my games there is always a LONG period of making my continent full of mines, roads, etc...

Having just recently pinpointed what sucks the fun out of Civ for me I'm now posting it. Is there something I'm missing? Some way of getting through the boring terraforming? I could automate my workers but Irrigation on grasslands in despotism!?! Please help me find the enjoyment once again, lol

Jerh9e1k5

	05-04-2004 07:15									#2
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Unfortunately there is no time-saver with workers. You can move them around in stacks, but must give them individual orders. The "worker gangs" idea was floated for a patch but was never implemented.

And as you know, automation is a pretty bad idea.

I don't think you're missing anything. What you're describing is part of the game - an important part. I've seen some players comment that to save the effort of MM'ing like this, they just drop down a level or two.

	05-04-2004 07:19									#3
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Well well well, another complaint about workers.

quote: Is there something I'm missing?

Public Works. This boredom-safe feature can only be found in Call to Power 1/2.

	05-04-2004 07:30									#4
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Thank you for the replies, but I do not understand what you mean by "public works". Were you trying to say that since CTP1/2 are modded a lot so they are "publicly" worked on?

	05-04-2004 07:40									#5
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No. Public Works is the solution to moving 50 workers around. You assign a Public Works (PW) Tax % that gets taken from your civs total production, that gets moved into a pool to spend on tile improvements, such as Farms, Fisheries, Ports, Mines etc. If you set PW tax to 20%, all your civs cities will produce at 80% their production capacity.

To place the tile improvements (when you have sufficient public works) you click the icon for it and click on the square where you want the tile imp.

	05-04-2004 08:01									#6
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Thanks for the quick reply! I hope that Firaxis addresses the boredom issues brought up by moving workers around forever in Civ 4. I believe that it would really add to Civ's endless replayability. It is the only thing that drives me away!

	05-04-2004 09:08									#7
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I don't see any way around it in despotism, but later you could possibly get away with the automate and don't change improvement function.

Public works is just another form of automated workers. The AI does it for you, hence you do not have any edge.

	05-04-2004 09:42									#8
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I find tile improvement in the ancient/medieval age to actually be almost a joy, as there isn't a lot of it and you aren't so tired that planning it out is a pain. It's once RR and pollution hit that I find it to become a bore.

One solution is just to play with smaller maps, and have fewer wars (fewer wars=fewer conquests=fewer cities to improve around). But that isn't much of a solution, is it?

Sincerely,

	05-04-2004 10:39									#9
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quote: by Switch..... One solution is just to play with smaller maps, and have fewer wars (fewer wars=fewer conquests=fewer cities to improve around). But that isn't much of a solution, is it?

In a word: NO

	05-04-2004 11:18									#10
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Yes it is RR that is a pain. I sort of enjoy seeing my tiles improved in the ancient era.

	05-04-2004 11:47									#11
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I have to agree that tile improvement in the late game does get a bit tedious. However at the same time I still prefer to have all my workers under my own command. I can't stand letting the AI do the tasks.

Regarding public works, I did like the CTP system for that except for one thing...in the early going it was almost impossible to improve the tiles as you had almost nothing in the way of PW. It wasn't until you had a bunch of cities up before you could even make one road to connect a few cities. I didn't like that too much. In the late game it was nice as PW allocation was high enough to matter, but the early game workers in Civ3 are much better for tile improvement...and that's when it counts.

	05-04-2004 15:29									#12
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The real funkiller is removing pollution in the late game. I really hope they rethink that particular concept for Civ IV.

	05-04-2004 15:46									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora Well well well, another complaint about workers. Public Works. This boredom-safe feature can only be found in Call to Power 1/2.

Sounds like a good concept. However, if as vmxa1 says (which is almost always spot on), it really just amounts to another way of automating workers, then its use will be less than optimal. Is there any way of assigning (in CTP) what public works will actually be done?

	05-04-2004 18:48									#14
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quote: Public works is just another form of automated workers. The AI does it for you, hence you do not have any edge.

Thats wrong. You assign a PW Tax % to your own production, when youve taxed enough to spend you select what and where you want the tile improvement. So Public Works is nothing like automated workers.

quote: Regarding public works, I did like the CTP system for that except for one thing...in the early going it was almost impossible to improve the tiles as you had almost nothing in the way of PW. It wasn't until you had a bunch of cities up before you could even make one road to connect a few cities. I didn't like that too much. In the late game it was nice as PW allocation was high enough to matter, but the early game workers in Civ3 are much better for tile improvement...and that's when it counts.

It depends how much you dedicate to PW tax, PW tax takes from city production, so its a choice. Rather than using a worker for tile imps which represents no choice and is a chore that HAS to be done on every worked tile ASAP.

In the Public Works system one city, in time, can produce the construction of all farms and outgoing roads for one city, because you dont have to place roads on every tile, only where theyre needed for faster movement, which also takes away the tedium of covering every tile with roads/rail.

	05-04-2004 21:46									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist The real funkiller is removing pollution in the late game. I really hope they rethink that particular concept for Civ IV.

Usually by that point I'll have most every tile improved so I can get away with Shift-A (automate but don't change) for all workers. They'll happily wake up to clean pollution and then go back to sleep in a city until needed again. They'll also complete your rail network in case you missed a tile or two.

Late game is also a good time to turn over control to the happiness governor. He not only prevents disorder from growth and WW, he'll automatically reassign citizens to tiles after the tiles have been cleared of pollution.

	05-04-2004 22:37									#16
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I tried an experiment recently, where I did not build any hospitals. This made pollution quite trivial. Since I was smashing the AI, it did not have a lot of pollution either. I played the game out to their having one city and no global warming and very little pollution.

Once RR is done, pollution is a snap for a large stack of slaves.

	06-04-2004 00:49									#17
	Re: Land Improvement Boring? Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Jerh9e1k5 I could automate my workers but Irrigation on grasslands in despotism!?! Please help me find the enjoyment once again, lol

Although it's not a good idea to automate in the early part of the game, it's really not that bad once you've been playing for awhile. Especially when you get into Railroads. I usually have just a few Workers that I controll manually for rush jobs etc. and let the rest do their own thing.

One thing I'd like to see is the Improve Nearest City command expanded on. It would be nice to have one Worker assigned to each city, and if it has nothing more to do it just sits in the city centre, waiting for any pollution to pop up. That would shorten the turn times considerably as well, since we wouldn't have to watch while a Worker travels from one side of the empire to the other one.

	06-04-2004 01:00									#18
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I think one way to drastically reduce tile improvement tedium would simply be to make roads and RR ONLY effect movement, or at the least have only roads increase tile production. I'm thinking similar to SMAC's roads and magtubes. Roads increased production slightly (I believe), and magtubes ony allowed the infinite movement. Then you wouldn't have to build RR in every worked tile, only have them to network cities and allow quick army deployment.

	06-04-2004 02:51									#19
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Wow, this many replies! Apolyton's enthusiasm has surprised me once again!

I find that in the beginnings of the game I enjoy terraforming the land. It only becomes boring once each city has about 2 workable tiles. I would use the automated workers if they didn't irrigate grasslands. Does anyone know how this could be changed? Is there somewhere that we could change to mine grasslands? With my very limited knowledge of programming I'll leave this challenge to the Apolyton community!

Jerh9e1k5

	06-04-2004 03:27									#20
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Hmm, a though...since some other people have also found RR to be the time when terrain improvment becomes tedious, is there a way to modify RRs effects on production, so that they ONLY have the movement bonus? I looked through the editor, but couldn't find anything. Is this a hardcoded thing, or am I not looking hard enough?

	06-04-2004 03:32									#21
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Yeah improvement is boring............make sure you learn the hotkeys so you can just repeatedly push them instead of doing it longhand.

	06-04-2004 06:17									#22
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Would anyone know how to customize the automated AI improvement tendencies? I've never used the editor before, maybe I'll go give it a look...

	06-04-2004 07:24									#23
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I don't think that is controlled by the editor settings.

	06-04-2004 11:28									#24
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I don't either... however do indeed give the editor a look, there are lots of nice things under the hood so to speak.

	06-04-2004 16:35									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Jerh9e1k5 I would use the automated workers if they didn't irrigate grasslands. Does anyone know how this could be changed? Is there somewhere that we could change to mine grasslands?

1. 'Heavy artillery' solution: you forbid the irrigation of grassland. I wouldn't do that, because you sometimes need to 'bring' water to your plain/desert tiles via grassland.
2. More reasonable solution: Isn't there an 'automated worker without altering existing improvement' option? Mine your grassland yourself, manually and let the AI do the rest. If he does a mistake (irrigate a tile you didn't already mined), just mine above his irrigation... or was that in another game?...civ2?

Despite those possible solutions, my main concern about automated workers is their attraction for new, unimproved, front line tiles.
When at war, I disable all automated workers, because I don't want them everywhere in the war zones - only, escorted by good defense, to build the strategical road/RR.

	06-04-2004 16:48									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Switch ... is there a way to modify RRs effects on production, so that they ONLY have the movement bonus?

I don't think so.
First the RR bonus goes together with the road bonus.
BUT, if you put the 'road' bonus for a given tile to 0 (zero), I think this forbids you to build any road AT ALL. At least this is how it works for irrigation.

	06-04-2004 17:20									#27
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I've said my part in threads like this one before, but I'll just once again weigh in by saying that I agree with its sentiment (in case "someone" is reading )....

Workers are boring for most of the game (though can be fun in first age), Public Works is a much better way to go, and RR production bonus and road trade bonus must go!!

Thank you to previous posters who have said why very adequatly.

	06-04-2004 17:59									#28
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I automate about 90% of my workers with targeted jobs (clear jungle, railroad to this space, clear pollution, Shift-A) after the Middle Ages. I leave a few for those jobs that must be done now and right.

Having tried the Public Works in CTP I found it more boring. Why? There was nothing to think about.

I think the road and railroad bonuses to reflect history fairly well though.

	06-04-2004 18:55									#29
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I actually think that there isn't anything to think about with civ3 improvements, because there isn't any either/or choices for the player in the later game.

The only improvement that offers an increased benefit over it's earlier counterpart is rails - and rails destroy strategic considerations because of their infinite movement bonus. Ugh...

Where is the need to decide to either upgrade a mine for more production or build a rail to boost movement? By the time you get to rails, the tiles in my cities are fully developed with farms/mines. So my decision is build rails and clean up pollution.

Boy that's challenging...Wake me up when I need to think.

I'll take the multi-tiered tile improvement decisionmaking offered with CTP's setup any day over what is in place with civ3. Even SMAC offered that type of setup.

	06-04-2004 20:22									#30
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I automate workers quite a bit in the late game, but it is problematic. I’ve found that it is easiest to set them on limited tasks (as WarpStorm mentioned), or to have them automate “this city only, no altering”. Otherwise workers have a nasty tendency to wander near hostile borders and get stupidly captured. I haven’t quite figured out what the rhyme of reason for this is, as sometimes workers will automatically flee to the closest city for safe harbor.