08-04-2004 04:35									#1
	Terms of Saving CGN Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Well, it's pretty clear that CGN is going down. They have no units covering the west side of their continent. GWT has 12 Ansar over there. 5 turns and they can be in Arhus.

Eventually, we will have to save them when their Settlers-on-Galleys ploy either falls on its face or is struck down in a miraculous bout of intelligence. We should provide a list of terms for them to agree to in order for us to gift them a city or more (wherever those city(s) may be).

The list:

• Obviously, their free new-age techs are on the list.
  
  
• We give them tech parity with techs that GWT has already recieved.
  
  
• They research at a 40-turn pace and gift us the techs when completed.
  
  
• Permanent ROP agreement, lux trading, MPP, alliance, etc. Basically all the politically binding stuff.
  
  
• They provide half-3/4 (?) their GPT to us permanently.
  
  
• They gift us all of their Workers (~20 IIRC). We give them, say, 1 or 2 of them back after they're over here in order to do improvements.

	08-04-2004 05:03									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Well, they can have some of those workers back, after they get that city, so as to do the improvements (saving me from having to do it...).

I say that, with CFC being worker poor and also benifiting from our alliance, that they get some (most??) of the slaves, to help with their infrastructure needs. It will also allow them to have more GPT to give us and get things moving over there.

Also, [b]IF[b] there is land up north, they will need those workers to help get it all set up.

E_T

	08-04-2004 05:20									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Definately include CFC in this.

I don't see how we can possibly pull out a win here if they turn on us. GWT will be looking at us as the next speed bump on their road to victory as soon as they wrap up CGN. That doesn't mean they'll attack pre-nav, but it does mean they will be thinking about it.


What's our long term win strategy at this point:

Conquest? Its going to be hard without a tech lead at this point. Not impossible, but it would definately be a grueling fight.

Space Ship? Again we need a tech lead and a bit of luck with resource placement.

Culture? No idea where we stand or where GWT stands.

Diplomacy? Now here's a decent option: 3 against 2 if we can get our allies on board with that option. Although this assumes we can survive to the modern era and get the UN first...again a tech lead.

	08-04-2004 05:22									#4
	Suffering from ads?

Oh and on the original topic:

Because I think we need them, I think we try to keep their feelings in mind with what we ask and how we say it. Sure at this point they aren't worth much, but if we aren't eliminated pre-railroads this game is going to come down to who techs fastest a this point....those free techs they can offer us will definately help.

	08-04-2004 05:56									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Add the UN vote, we might as well discuss that up front.

Thanks for starting this we needed to begin this discussion.

	08-04-2004 06:25									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Turn by turn make up of their Military forces and how they compare to the other civs, besides us that is.

E_T

	08-04-2004 07:54									#7
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

UN VOTE!

	08-04-2004 08:21									#8
	Support Apolyton

Be aware of asking them for workers.

If the intention is to transport them to our continent so that we can gift them straight back, then this could be considered unit warping.

	08-04-2004 12:35									#9
	Increase Your PM Length

If I were GWT, I'd try the "choker" strategy on Apolyton. Send over a few small stacks of attackers + defenders and do nothing but harrass us. Of course, that's going to be tricky before Navigation.

	09-04-2004 02:16									#10
	Tired of ads?

The difference in workers and other units:

Worker trades are allowed by the interface and are part of the game as it is designed. They will of course need them in their capital to gift them.

In my book this is not an exploit.

	10-04-2004 11:58									#11
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The interface also allows cities to swap ownership every turn so that wonders (eg Leo's) can be shared between two teams.

Just because its in the interface, doesnt make it right.

I have no problem with accepting workers. And even gifting those workers back at a later time.

But if the "intention" is to trade them to us, and then we immediatley trade them back the same turn when they have a new capital on our continent, then I see it no better than unit warping.

	10-04-2004 12:08									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

The key point is that it was purposefully implimented, whereas the effect of, say, swapping Leo's, was not.

	10-04-2004 12:33									#13
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

If those workers aren't needed by them, they aren't getting them back immediately..... I just might have too many things for them to do before they get traded back. We are going to get our monies worth out of them first.....

E_T

	10-04-2004 20:00									#14
	Tired of ads?

The interface may allow trading cities every turn for humans. Try getting an AI to do it

Mute point in a game of all humans I know, but my point is that worker swapping is a well thought out game dynamic that was intended by Firaxis. Whereas its equally clear (to me at least) that city swapping has lots of loop holes that are prone to abuse.

This isn't just a case of "we want to do it, so its alright" either. I'd be equally fine with it if any team exchanged workers for any reason.

	10-04-2004 23:02									#15
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

While I am unhappy at giving money to CGN when I feel that their defeat is certain, I do believe that keeping them a viable obstacle for GWT ... making it difficult for GWT ... is in our best interest. The longer GWT has to fight CGN the most shields and gold they have to throw away and the more WW they suffer through. It also delays their preparations for a war with us and may help us get the jump on them before they're ready.

CGN already owes us 600g and I doubt we'll ever get any of it back. Giving them another 600g seems wasteful to me without some sort of collateral attached.

I propose that we allow them to "sell" us workers at 20g each and then be able to buy them back at any time in the future.

Just having those workers in our backyard doing improvements for us or allowing us to join a few of our workers will be well worth the investment and if they want them back, they give us our gold back, so there's no loss on our part. They could buy a few back or all of them back. Doesn't matter to me. We benefit either way.

Furthermore, we push CFC to "buy" some of their workers because CFC really needs to get their act together and develop their country.

If CGN flees and resettles somewhere they can buy back 2-3 of their workers, we gift them, and they immediately start working their new island or peninsula or whatever.

Additional benefits to CGN:
Less upkeep
Workers will be safe -- GWT can't nab them
They cannot evac their workers safely. If they do evac, we can gift them workers.
They can buy them back at any time.
Their native population points are safe in Apolyton and can be returned to them should they rise again to power.


There is some talk about requiring that we have military control over them. I do not think this is a wise option, diplomaticly. We certainly could do a better job than them, but that's from our POV. They are still a prideful team, moreso than CFC, and it's likely that they harbor some animosity towards us ... we we've advised them throughout this conflict and it hasn't gone very well for them.

In chats with Trip over military strategy they often disagree and blame us for the loss of their knights (when we pointed out the odds were better with them on defense). If we advise them and they still lose, who will they blame for it? Who will they resent because of it? How happy will they be with us if we take control of them and they still get their ass beat??

I am loathe to request that they give up their freedom of choice to us. It's a very big thing to demand of them, and it puts all the responsibility and pressure on us to perform. I'd rather they be responsible and feel responsible for their own fate. I'd rather they see us as benevolent instead of being controling. I'd rather we not strain relations by saying, "This is our money and we want to make sure you don't screw it up!"

Let's go with just the collateral aspect of the "loan". I believe it's far better for our relations long-term.

--Togas

	11-04-2004 00:16									#16
	Support Apolyton

Togas, could you re-post your opinions about the CGN loan in the CGN loan thread?

Sorry for the inconvenience.

	11-04-2004 00:42									#17
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Arnelos Togas, could you re-post your opinions about the CGN loan in the CGN loan thread? Sorry for the inconvenience.

Arnie, Togas, I went ahead and quoted Togas' post and posted it over in that other thread, as he's currently offline and that discussion needs to get moving.

E_T