08-04-2004 23:45									#1
	How do I prevent culture flipping? Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I don't want to disable this feature in the game, but I'd like to hear from the experience war mongers on the following situation.

In a recent game, I sailed a large flotilla filled with knights, pikemen, and medieval infantry to the southern flank of a nearby AI. The city had some fur I needed...

So, I landed my invasion force of well over 20 units, declared war and attacked the city the next turn. I captured it, fortified my force inside the city fended off the first counter-attack wave, then a couple turns later, while I was healing up my forces, the city flipped back to the Celts!!! Bamb, lost 15 units!!!

I read somewhere in here, that positioning a lot of troops in a city was supposed to prevent a culture flip.

How could I have prevented this???

	09-04-2004 04:59									#2
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

In the main having troops around 3xpop should do the job. What can be done to aid the cause:

1- cut roads to their capitol
2- place troops on tiles of the city (I have not tried this, but it hasbeen reported)
3- rush a temple as soon as resister are gone

I know this is like a wives tale, but I never had a city flip with an army in it. Now that could be like an elephant fence (none re around so it works).

	09-04-2004 06:16									#3
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I know this is like a wives tale, but I never had a city flip with an army in it.

It is - I have!

I know it's pretty annoying to have that happen. Last game something similar happened to me. I capture a size 21 city, and moved 15 troops into it only to see it flip a couple of turns later.

vmxa1 is right - it seems you need a ratio of about 3:1 to be relatively safe from flipping, which of course is impractical for a size 15 or 20 city. Another tactic some players use is to leave your main force just outside the city, ready to re-take it when it flips. This has the added advantage that when you retake it, the city is usually a few pop points lower which in some cases works even faster than starving it down - especially if the AI uses its turn to draft.

Other tips:
1. Make sure the city isn't rioting - switch on th egovernor to control citizen moods as soon as you capture it and don't turn the governor off until you've finished quelling resistors
2. Make sure there are no enemy units occupying any of the workable city tiles
3. If possible, generate a WLTKD
4. Not always possible - but if the enemy Capital is nearby, get rid of it quickly!

	10-04-2004 04:39									#4
	Remove this text

BTW I took it for granted that you would put everyone on specialist. At least through any anarchy or until down to the size you want.

	10-04-2004 06:36									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Thank you for your inputs. I usually do keep my units out of the newly captured city, but I had read that keeping the force in the city would prevent culture flips. It appears as if once you get to Monarch, culture flips are more likely. You essentially have 3-4 turns to take out the capital.

Next time, i'm just going to burrn everything to the ground...

	13-04-2004 17:05									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

The probability of a flip (and hence the number of units required to be completely safe) depends several factors, which I won't list here, because they are described in detail elsewhere.

For example in the FlipCalc thread, which hosts a utility that calculates for you the chance a city will flip, as well as the minimum number of units required to be safe from a flip.

	13-04-2004 17:29									#7
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 In the main having troops around 3xpop should do the job.

I had a border city flipping just yesterday. It was pop 1 and had 8 units in it, one of which was an army of 3 units, which I counted as only one unit. All units were valid land units suitable to prevent flips (i.e. no catapults, ships or similar). It was my own city, btw, the only citizen was mine. My jaw was dropping when I saw it. Just for sports interest, I reloaded and put more units in it, with the result, that it needed ten units to be safe. Just to remind, it was size 1!

	13-04-2004 17:52									#8
	Increase the size of your Attachments

lol...I don't think that flip calculator is right...

In a Monarch game, I was beeting up on the Iroquois. I was using a systematic approach of quick wars followed by brief peace time buildups. Every city north and west of the Iroquois capitol was controlled by me. Turns out that there were about 3 or 4 wonders in the Iroquois capitol. Two turns after they built Leonardo's, a city I had occupied for a few hundred years, size 6, with 2 units in it and a temple I had built, flipped!

This city was behind two cities I occupied and on the coastline controlled by my culture range.

This infuriated me!

Salamanca must have had some serious cultural power to pull that off! Why didn't it sway any of the cities that were closer???

	13-04-2004 18:18									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by WarriorPoet lol...I don't think that flip calculator is right...

You are too quick to dismiss what experienced players have spent lots of time to figure out. If the calculator is not 100% right, it's very close to it.

The example you give doesn't give any information that contradicts the calculator. How many foreign citizens were in the flipped city? What was the ratio of your culture to the Iroquois' culture? What was your local culture in that city?

	13-04-2004 18:24									#10
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph I had a border city flipping just yesterday. It was pop 1 and had 8 units in it, one of which was an army of 3 units, which I counted as only one unit.

Actually, I believe the Army should count as 4 units, but I could be wrong. Anyway, how many tiles in that city's radius were under foreign control?

For example, if there were just 4 tiles under foreign control, and your culture was 1/3 that of the other civ, you would need 12 units to be safe from a flip.

	13-04-2004 18:32									#11
	Put an end to popups!

Alex, I'll try to dig out the .sav, but I'm pretty sure, that 3 of the 6 citizens were of my civ. The city was about 10 tiles west and 4 tiles north of Salamanca, the enemy capitol. My foreign advisor said that the Iroquois were "impressed with my culture" Additionally, the only culture I had in the city in question was from a Temple, that I had built about 20 turns ago.

I apollogize for appearing to dismiss the work of more experienced players. I should have approached this much more diplomatically. This event which I have just dropped on the community would probably be extremely difficult and rare to duplicate.

Salamanca is the original capitol of the Iroquois, and like I said, it had 3 or 4 wonders in it, including the Sistine Chapel, the Oracle, and Leonardo's, and the Hanging Guardens.

I should also point out that the Iroquois were the #1 Civ for a looooooong time before I hopped off my Island and started invading them.

	13-04-2004 18:40									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

No need to dig up a save. If there were 3 Iroquois citizens and you had twice the culture of the Iroquois (impossible to have more if they are only 'impressed'), and your local city culture was less than the Iroquois (certain, if you had just a Temple for a few hundred years), then you would have needed at least 3 units to be completely safe from a flip. You said you had just 2.

	13-04-2004 18:41									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by alexman Actually, I believe the Army should count as 4 units, but I could be wrong. Anyway, how many tiles in that city's radius were under foreign control? For example, if there were just 4 tiles under foreign control, and your culture was 1/3 that of the other civ, you would need 12 units to be safe from a flip.

It was for sure 4 tiles, if not more. About culture, well, it was during the REX phase and my first temples were just being built, so I had so far only my palace's. It's possible, that I had less than 1/3 of theirs, but OTOH, the other civ was Russia and it was only Emperor. If we count the army as 4 units, I ended up with 13 units making the city safe.

I just wanted to demonstrate, that the popx3 rule (if it exists at all) doesn't hold water.

	13-04-2004 18:58									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Ok, thank you Alex for your incite. I never had to worry about cultur flipping at Regent level...

Regent to Monarch is a huge step!

I'm finding that in order to wage a successful war, I have to invaid, and take a supply point, then gun for the capitol ASAP.

Learning to avoid culture flips has meant that I have to build up larger force structures with ready reserves prior to invading.

	14-04-2004 02:04									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

FYI incite should be insight. You incite someone, you make them mad.

	14-04-2004 02:30									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

It's poetic license.

	14-04-2004 05:50									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

....or is it a poetic licence?

	14-04-2004 06:04									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

The one thing I've never been able to work out about the flipcalc is how do you know the AI's total culture? Doesn't the histograph just show the ratio of the culture you are generating at the moment, to that of the AI - rather than the ratio of total culture points? Other than that, all you've got to go on is "they're impressed", etc.

	14-04-2004 07:20									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

It's actually the ratio that matters in the flip probability, so the "they're impressed" statement is good enough for an estimate.

See the editor for the culture ratios corresponding to each description.

	14-04-2004 19:27									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Actually, I think I incited Alexman, which lead to his insightful comments ;-)

	15-04-2004 06:02									#21
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Yes, you probably did....let's hope there's an end in sight.

	15-04-2004 19:55									#22
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I'm hopeful Alexman will forgive me...I'd hate to have him vent his frustration in a multiplayer game...

	15-04-2004 20:52									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

No forgiveness until your capital is razed!



(not sure why you think I'm mad - that's not the case at all)

	15-04-2004 22:04									#24
	Put an end to popups!

LOL

Just spinning some humor out of some developments in this thread.

Nothing but love for you, alex And I'm spent!

	16-04-2004 06:33									#25
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by WarriorPoet LOL Just spinning some humor out of some developments in this thread. Nothing but love for you, alex And I'm spent!

Love? Spent? Hmmm, let's keep it clean huh?

	16-04-2004 17:37									#26
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

lol

Anyway, I've upgraded my tactics now. I basically increased the priority of enemy cultural centers, and I've greatly increased my follow-on/occupation garrisons.

Also, thanks for the headsup on the meaning of the cultural advisors ramblings.