10-04-2004 02:20									#31
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Christianity, of course, is not without its fair share of problems. I much prefer the Islamic idea of Satan "Eblis" to the Satan our society has created, for example. I have great respect for the Sufis. However, there is simply too much rigidity and too many rules for me to really get into Islam. I admire some parts of it, but it just doesn't work for me.

	10-04-2004 02:25									#32
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A lot of the Islamic rules are actually based on the saying (hadiths) of Muhammad, and of varying reliability. Many reject a lot of those sayings and instead try and stick to the Koran.
The famouse Islamic lawschools that created the Sharia largely worked from the Hadith and the umma, or community decision, meaning that their rulings often had nothing to do with Religion.

	10-04-2004 02:30									#33
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Like all religions, islam is more than the one book, writen by how many men or committees, that is ascribed as the source-it was modified and codified by different tribes as it spread, and a lot of its rules were latter additions with some guy saying "you know, I really like this religion, except for the part about X", and then part X gets changed to make it more palpatable.

	10-04-2004 02:35									#34
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GePap, are you talking about the Koran being modified and codified?

	10-04-2004 04:25									#35
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quote: United Methodist Church

	10-04-2004 08:19									#36
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quote: Also Muslims are normally only allowed 3 wifes, not four like you incorrectly describe. Except during times of war, where men are allowed to 'marry' widows to protect and support them, in much the same way Muhammad did.

actually, a few lines in the koran concerning the prohibition of marriages with certain women (siblings, daughters, etc.) sheds some light on the nature of islamic polygamy. one line prohibits marriage with one of your wives' step-daughter unless the marriage with the step-daugther's mother has not be consummated. in that line from the surah called "Women", apparently of the small percentage of muslims who engage in polygamy, many do not even have sex with their wives but rather, marrying these women is equivalent to adoption.

As for violence, there is no doubt that Jesus' message was far more peaceful than Mohammed's. Jesus demanded people to forgive each other, to turn the other cheek, to give a cloak to a thief who has stolen from you, etc. Islam quite explicitly says you have the right to retaliate if a wrong has been committed against you.

Islam, however, though less peaceful than Christianity, is also more tolerant. That Christians and Jews who live goods lives will go to heaven is never doubted, whereas Christians say quite explicitly that salvation is only possible through the acceptance of Jesus as one's saviour.

	10-04-2004 08:28									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov In my experience, a good number of people who take religion classes are usually not interested in approaching such issues with an open mind any way. So don't be too disheartened.

This is very true.

My school was full of these types, I couldn't stand it.


One girl whose opinion I normally respect responded one time to a religious debate I had with her, "those religions all ripped off Chrisitianity!!!"

I was trying to get her explanations for:

1) Why all non Chrisitans are going to burn in hell

2) How in the hell most gays "choose" to be gay even though there are people in this world such as hermaphrodites, people who have NEITHER sex organs, etc.

	10-04-2004 08:37									#38
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yeah the whole salvation is only possible through Jesus thing is real detrimental to Christian tolerance. the early Baptists were probably the only denomination to declare that other paths to God were valid besides through Jesus and look what happened to that...

	10-04-2004 08:40									#39
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the old Baptists did that?

Whoah, talk about irony...

	10-04-2004 08:47									#40
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Ted:

it all goes back to Roger Williams who, by the way created the idea of the american indians as 'noble savages'

quote: Roger Williams left England during the persecutions led by Archbishop William Laud. When he arrived in Massachusetts Bay Colony in 1631, he was offered the pastorate of the Congregational church in Boston. He decline the position because his "conscience was persuaded against the national church." He was soon banished from the colony for voicing the conviction that the authorities "cannot without a spiritual rape force the consciences of all to one worship." Banished in the winter of 1636, Roger Williams found a tribe of Native Americans more hospitable than the Puritans of New England. He purchased Rhode Island from the natives, started a town called Providence, and formed the first Baptist church in America in 1638/39. Then Williams and another Baptist, John Clarke, worked for fourteen years to secure a charter for the Colony of Rhode Island that would guarantee religious liberty for all the colony's inhabitants. It was the first charter in the world that secured "a free, full, and absolute liberty of conscience."

True Baptists are not baptized until their teenage years (hence, why they are called baptists) because Roger Williams disliked the practice of baptizing infants and children because he saw no sense in it. a child did not have the reason to decide that Christ was his saviour. only when one is mature enough to rationally decide that Christ is his path may one join the baptist church.

of course this has changed dramatically and baptists are now baptized as infants. when i tell baptists that the founder of their denomination was against infant baptism, they say that mere men can not decide such things. bullshit modern baptists.

	10-04-2004 08:49									#41
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Very interesting

Never knew the source of the word Baptist!

	10-04-2004 08:55									#42
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it is very bothersome to me how baptists have desecrated perhaps the most tolerant christian denomination and the denomination whose beliefs had a massive impact on the forming of the American ethos that led to our liberal democracy.

i guess the baptists (especially in cities) have grown very defensive what with them being up against catholics, jahovah's witnesses, and since the 1960's, muslims. baptists now devote all their religious knowledge in defaming catholics, jahovah's witnesses, and muslims. it's disgusting.

	10-04-2004 09:05									#43
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haha, dude albert, "what with" always makes me crack up when you type it.

	10-04-2004 09:28									#44
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why?

	10-04-2004 11:13									#45
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that's what happens when you take a class about religion.

All Religions are crap. You have to expect fanatics.

	10-04-2004 11:23									#46
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cause youre the only one i know who does it

	10-04-2004 11:32									#47
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really. a lot of people i know say 'what with.'

	10-04-2004 11:33									#48
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must be a philly thing...

	10-04-2004 17:24									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker 2) How in the hell most gays "choose" to be gay even though there are people in this world such as hermaphrodites, people who have NEITHER sex organs, etc.

Oh Ted, when guys see you, how could they choose not to be gay?

But that tale reminds me of something my roommate witness his freshman year at Notre Dame. He was in a biology class, and the professor (a priest, naturally), started talking about evolutionary biology. One girl piped up that she didn't believe in evolution and her religion meant she couldn't accept it as true.

Now, disregarding the fact the Vatican had, a long time ago, accepted evolution as being fact, the priest stopped her and said, "You have a right to believe what you wish, but this is a biology class. Can you at least accept the possibility that evolution is fact?"

"No, not at all" was her response.

"Okay," replied the priest, "I'm not going to say you should leave the class, that's up to you--but I warn you know, if you can't at least accept the possibility of evolution, then you're going to have a very hard time in any biological sciences course."

The girl said she didn't see why, and the priest briefly tried to explain the whole notion of scientific method, which seemed to go straight over her head. He finally asked her what her intended major was.

"Pre-med," she said. The priest had to nearly choke back a guffaw.

"Well, no offense, but you're going to have to change your major, for the sake of your future patients. Nobody with your mindset about science has any business practicing medicine."

She was unwavering, but ended up dropping the course later on. Fortunately this type seems to be the exception, as most people, even Creationists, who go on to take college-level biology courses come to realize that dogmatic adherence to the literal teachings of their faith doesn't really mesh with the real world.

	10-04-2004 17:26									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident that's what happens when you take a class about religion. All Religions are crap. You have to expect fanatics.

Not true. I took a couple of religion courses in college, and they were devoid of fanatics. Of course, it was a fairly liberal college, and the professor was a gay Episcopalian minister.

	10-04-2004 17:35									#51
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I guess there must be different breeds of Baptists, then. I'm pretty positive the ones back home reject the validity of infant baptism.

	10-04-2004 18:10									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Christianity started out as a deviant sect of Judaism and the first two centuries AD saw it changed radically. A good class on the history of Christianity should be made manditory for all Christians. That said I've now read about 80% of the Koran and I must say it is a much more violent religion then the Christianity of the New Testiment (I.E. the part about Jesus and his Apostiles). The Koran starts out peaceful enough but as Mohommed becomes more powerful it gets more and more vitriole and much more punitive. I also noticed how the good Prophet started claiming God's rules frequently changed when it was in Mohommed's interest for them to do so; just check out how Mohommed rewrote the rules in order to allow him to marry his brother's ex-wife (which was previously forbiden) or how he wrote in special exemptions for himself to have an unlimited number of wives (other Moslems could only have four) etc...

The first books of the Koran were quite concilliatory towars Jews and Christians, but Mohammed made the naive mistake of believing that people of the other monotheistic religions would rally behind his bid for power in Mecca. Not only did the Jewish and Christian communiies not support him, but they helped those who opposed him, and he was evicted. I believe that the more rancorous parts of the Koran were written after his initial setbacks.

	10-04-2004 18:20									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist I guess there must be different breeds of Baptists, then. I'm pretty positive the ones back home reject the validity of infant baptism.

I'm a little confused too. When I was growing up Baptists were not to be baptised until age 12, but today i know a number of baptists who were baptised at an early age. Of course, when I was growing up a kid couldn't participate in Holy Communion until being confirmed, which was fixed at a minimum age of 12. Today if your kid comes up to the Communion railing no matter hos young they offer him a slug of wine. I was deeply chagrined when they managed to slip past me and give my 5 year old a big gulp. He sloshed it down like he'd been drinking all his life. I had to force him to learn to dip his wafers for fear that the child welfare officers might give me a little visit.

	10-04-2004 20:55									#54
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Methodists baptise at infancy, IIRC. I know I was baptised when I was a baby. My parents aren't even religious, so I'm not sure why they did it. Probably because it was the "expected" thing to do.

	10-04-2004 22:46									#55
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EK: Sometimes you are a pretenous ****. You are wrong on several of your points however I'm offended by the way you sneared at me and so I'm not going to continue this conversation.

	10-04-2004 23:07									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin EK: Sometimes you are a pretenous ****.

Surely 'pretentious'? Sorry, being a sp nazi is a low blow. I was pretty angry at your misconceptions. I still think you're almost completely and utterly wrong about the Koran.

quote: You are wrong on several of your points however I'm offended by the way you sneared at me and so I'm not going to continue this conversation.

Well boo bloody hoo. Obviously you can't defend your arguements, so blaming me is a good cop-out.

	10-04-2004 23:33									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Evil Knevil Well boo bloody hoo. Obviously you can't defend your arguements, so blaming me is a good cop-out.

That's precious. You should not assume that just because he doesn't want to argue with you he can't defend his position.

	11-04-2004 02:08									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Oh Ted, when guys see you, how could they choose not to be gay?

Awwww

They'd hit it.

	11-04-2004 04:35									#59
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I've hit it many, many times... IN MY MIND!!!

HAhaHahAhaHA!!!