10-04-2004 11:08									#1
	Another CGN Loan? Put an end to popups!

CGN desires another loan. They have cut their iron and been building a number of horsemen and the purpose of this loan would be to allow them to mass upgrade their horsemen to knights so that they would have a counter-attack force to use against GWT.

Much of CGN seemed to want an amount of 600g.

SL3, being more realistic, told me that what they'd probably really need to have any shot at victory would be 1000 gold now and 200 more gold every 2 turns. All of it would be for horse to knight upgrades.

SL3, being far more of a realist than the rest of his team, however, told me that he thinks that a minimal amount of 400g next turn followed by about 120g every 2 turns would be enough to put up a good fight against GWT while concentrating the rest of their attention on a mass exodus with galleys and settlers.

Togas brought up and then insisted on the idea that we would be willing to give them more money if they gave us workers as colllateral or as payment (rather than a "loan" they'd never repay). He suggested a figure of 20g per worker, but that's of course negotiable. SL3 told me that they currently have 20 workers and he could send 1 worker per turn, roughly, if it was needed. He seemed interested in sending workers for safekeeping since they wouldn't have to transport them on galleys (given that worker trading is legal), but otherwise was skeptical of the worker idea if coupled with requiring the other idea.

Trip suggested and insisted on some means of Apolyton either having military control of CGN's forces as part of the loan agreement or at least some means by which close coordination could take place. I eventually got SL3 to agree that if we do send a loan of at least 80g per turn, he will post screenshots of the turn BEFORE BEING PLAYED to the embassy forum, where conmcb25 or another from Apolyton can get them and repost them here on Apolyton for general review. conmcb25, Trip, or others would then be responsible for carrying sugestions made by Apolyton members back to the embassy forum and giving them to CGN.

SL3 seemed to think that his team would be willing to make the screenshots -or- the workers as part of the loan deal, but seemed skeptical on both.

Finally, whle his team very much wants the loan and many are still deluded into thinking they have a fighting chance, SL3 is far more realistic. He does not believe that CGN can any longer win this war and would be perfectly happy (personally) if we turned down the loan since he might finally convince his team of the absolute futility of their cause. On the other hand, he seemed to suggest that at least SOME money might help him make the war as costly as possible for GWT, which would help Apolyton and the alliance as a whole whether CGN ultimately lost or not.

-------------------------------------------

Members of the team....

First, would you, under ANY circumstances, be willing to loan/gift more money to CGN?

If so, how much are you willing to give/loan?

If so, what restrictions must be placed on the agreement and what must CGN give in return?

We will need to resolve this issue as much as possible before CGN plays their next turn, so it likely will not be enough time for a poll unless the turns are delayed. With that in mind, the team needs to discuss this because something this important must be a team decision as much as possible. If there is not enough time to conduct a full poll after a discussion before CGN *needs* an answer, the Consuls will provide an answer based upon how discussion in this thread is proceeding.

Afterall, time constraints such as this one are the reason the Consuls are so empowered. I promise, however, that I, at least, will do what is responsible in adhering to public sentiment to the best of my ability to gauge it, however.

Let the discussions begin. This is something we need to decide and rather quickly.

	10-04-2004 11:21									#2
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I say that we give them what we can this turn, in multiples of 80 and that is the last of it.

We have things that are going to require some amount of shortrushing to get ready for our GA and possible war with GWT/GCA that we don't need to be throwing it away. But also, on the other hand, we want this war to contunue for as long as we can make it, so as to further delay GWT/GCA from getting started rebuilding that land and getting their War Weariness out of the way.

That one original figure

quote: 1000 gold now and 200 more gold every 2 turns

is even beyond what we can support, unless we (and CFC) were to go entirely 100% taxes (even after the Palace move, it;s not feasable).

We warned them, they poo-poo'ed us. We tell them how to fight Humans, they don;t listen. But they still want to take us down with them, while they lose the fight. I'm sorry, but I can;t help but think that they are deserving of their fate. If we didn't need them for the UN vote and the free techs, then I would tell them to have a nice afterlife....

MoI E_T

	10-04-2004 12:31									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by E_T I say that we give them what we can this turn, in multiples of 80 and that is the last of it. We have things that are going to require some amount of shortrushing to get ready for our GA and possible war with GWT/GCA that we don't need to be throwing it away. But also, on the other hand, we want this war to contunue for as long as we can make it, so as to further delay GWT/GCA from getting started rebuilding that land and getting their War Weariness out of the way. That one original figure is even beyond what we can support, unless we (and CFC) were to go entirely 100% taxes (even after the Palace move, it;s not feasable). We warned them, they poo-poo'ed us. We tell them how to fight Humans, they don;t listen. But they still want to take us down with them, while they lose the fight. I'm sorry, but I can;t help but think that they are deserving of their fate. If we didn't need them for the UN vote and the free techs, then I would tell them to have a nice afterlife.... MoI E_T

I'm pretty much in agreement with E_T. We've already given them a lot of gold that was ultimately wasted (though it hopefully took some GWT soldiers down too and increased their WW).

Give them a little bit of gold if necessary, enough for a couple upgrades, but that should be the end of it. They're a sinking ship.

	10-04-2004 23:34									#4
	Re: Another CGN Loan? Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Arnelos Members of the team.... First, would you, under ANY circumstances, be willing to loan/gift more money to CGN?

Yes.

quote: Originally posted by Arnelos If so, how much are you willing to give/loan?

Depends; see below.

quote: Originally posted by Arnelos If so, what restrictions must be placed on the agreement and what must CGN give in return?

I would want to give them gold for workers, either under the purchase plan (they sell us workers to keep up their war effort) or the collateral plan (they sell us workers, but with the agreement that we'll sell them back as soon as CGN has the money).

My reasoning: Another loan would just be gold down the tube. I see little hope of their winning this war anymore. But slaves would be worth quite a lot of gold regardless of whether we get it back, making it win-win if they lose - they at least get some more gold to fight GWT with, we get some productive and maintenance-free slaves - and win-win if they win - we get our gold back, and will have been able to use the slaves for some extra land improvements.

Note: If we do the collateral plan, I think they should be required to pay off the first loan first, then start buying back their workers.

	11-04-2004 00:40									#5
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Arnelos wanted Togas to also post this here, but he's currently offlinem so I'm quoting it here

quote: Originally posted by Togas in "Terms of Saving CGN" Thread While I am unhappy at giving money to CGN when I feel that their defeat is certain, I do believe that keeping them a viable obstacle for GWT ... making it difficult for GWT ... is in our best interest. The longer GWT has to fight CGN the most shields and gold they have to throw away and the more WW they suffer through. It also delays their preparations for a war with us and may help us get the jump on them before they're ready. CGN already owes us 600g and I doubt we'll ever get any of it back. Giving them another 600g seems wasteful to me without some sort of collateral attached. I propose that we allow them to "sell" us workers at 20g each and then be able to buy them back at any time in the future. Just having those workers in our backyard doing improvements for us or allowing us to join a few of our workers will be well worth the investment and if they want them back, they give us our gold back, so there's no loss on our part. They could buy a few back or all of them back. Doesn't matter to me. We benefit either way. Furthermore, we push CFC to "buy" some of their workers because CFC really needs to get their act together and develop their country. If CGN flees and resettles somewhere they can buy back 2-3 of their workers, we gift them, and they immediately start working their new island or peninsula or whatever. Additional benefits to CGN: Less upkeep Workers will be safe -- GWT can't nab them They cannot evac their workers safely. If they do evac, we can gift them workers. They can buy them back at any time. Their native population points are safe in Apolyton and can be returned to them should they rise again to power. There is some talk about requiring that we have military control over them. I do not think this is a wise option, diplomaticly. We certainly could do a better job than them, but that's from our POV. They are still a prideful team, moreso than CFC, and it's likely that they harbor some animosity towards us ... we we've advised them throughout this conflict and it hasn't gone very well for them. In chats with Trip over military strategy they often disagree and blame us for the loss of their knights (when we pointed out the odds were better with them on defense). If we advise them and they still lose, who will they blame for it? Who will they resent because of it? How happy will they be with us if we take control of them and they still get their ass beat?? I am loathe to request that they give up their freedom of choice to us. It's a very big thing to demand of them, and it puts all the responsibility and pressure on us to perform. I'd rather they be responsible and feel responsible for their own fate. I'd rather they see us as benevolent instead of being controling. I'd rather we not strain relations by saying, "This is our money and we want to make sure you don't screw it up!" Let's go with just the collateral aspect of the "loan". I believe it's far better for our relations long-term. --Togas

	11-04-2004 00:53									#6
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The only potential downside to the buying workers plan is that we're going to get the workers eventually anyway...

	11-04-2004 00:58									#7
	Increase Your PM Length

Go with the Lend Lease program of workers for Gold.

It gets CGN moving in the "right" direction. Currently some of there nOOB's think they can still win this war. And they have some "unusual" plans to do it.

This gets them transferring the workers to us which we hope they will do eventually but there is no guarentee. It also gets them away from GWT because quite frankly the way they are handling this war it wouldn't surprise me if those workers got captured over the next 5 to 10 turns.

Its a good way for us to "package" giving them money and pushing them to do what they should do and thats get us the workers.

As far as our input into there war effort, I agree with Togas, we can offer advice but more direct control is bound to lead to ill feelings, especially since unless something tantamount to a miracle occurs soon they are on a very rapid downhill ride. I have heard about Agincourt and how our advice over that battle has really screwed them up more than once. I hear about it ALL the time.

Workers for Gold.

Go Lend-Lease

	11-04-2004 01:01									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by WhiteBandit The only potential downside to the buying workers plan is that we're going to get the workers eventually anyway...

You dont know that, they could screw up and GWT could get them.

muk14 had some plan to use them to "slow down GWT".

We aren't dealing with Apoly here

The upside to this plan is we make SURE they get the workers to us. Look call it manipulation if you want. But if I have to manipulate CGN to help us get victory, then Im going to do it

	11-04-2004 01:59									#9
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 Look call it manipulation if you want. But if I have to manipulate CGN to help us get victory, then Im going to do it

hehe, sounds like one of MZ's "Evil Plans (tm)"....

E_T

	11-04-2004 04:30									#10
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by E_T hehe, sounds like one of MZ's "Evil Plans (tm)".... E_T

It might but compared to me MZ is still an amateur

"Age and treachery will always defeat youth and skill".

You can quote me on that

	11-04-2004 04:55									#11
	Support Apolyton

I have been playing games with besiegings of castles. One tactic is to have a stone castle with towers, etc, surrounded by wooden walls and barricades. The enemy has first to take down to wooden walls and after that the stome walls and finally the keep.

You probably think: what is this guy talking about, what has this to do with the GWT-CGN war? A lot is my answer.

While the besieging is going on you can spend tons of money on repairing the wooden walls and preventing the enemy to get to the stone walls, but if you don't have proper stone walls to defend the keep, what use it there to spend money on the wooden walls?

CGN is our wooden wall. We know that is going to fall and we are only using it to weaken our enemy. Wooden walls are but meant to fall and should thus not be kept up. Especially not when the stone walls, our defences are not prepared for a war against GWT.

The wooden walls are usually used too to gain more time. Time for what? For training troops to garrison the castle. What we are but actually doing by spending so much money on CGN is getting more time do do nothing with: no money left to hurry production will result in a lower amount of troops.

The time of payment for CGN is over, for Apolyton the time has come to concentrate on its own survival.

Let GWT destroy our wooden walls and barricades, we have stone walls to build to prepare for the real battle.

I say give them none or very little, we can use it better then they do and they only waste it.

Ask yourself these questions: how much is the vote of CGN for us in the UN worth to you? If the price would be the downfall of Apolyton, is that a fair price to pay? That is the reality of tomorrow.

Aidun

	11-04-2004 05:05									#12
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I think that Togas's plan is not bad, but only if theose workers are of real use to us. We need to prepare for war and not for peacetime, so every coin is welcome.

Aidun

	11-04-2004 06:34									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Opinion for the gold-for-Workers deal seems positive thus far. As I am playing the turn soon, I will send them 240 gold in exchange for 12 Workers. I will also ask CFC to send 80 gold accepted with their next turn. This gives CGN enough gold to upgrade 6 Knights on their turn, giving them a total of 10. Should GWT's Ansar stack wander too far from their Pikes then they should be able to maul it pretty good.

	11-04-2004 11:59									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I say we give them gold so that they can make it more 'painful' for GWT. If we let CGN attack with only their Horsemen, GWT won't hardly feel it. I think the gold we lose will be actually less than what GWT could lose in terms of units and War Weariness if CGN is successful in draging this out for GWT.

I don't like the idea of giving CGN too many conditions for this loan. It may makle them a bit resentful as Togas said earlier. If we play this right we will have two Civ's supporting us while GWT only has one.

Has anyone asked CFC if they would be willing to give up their island to CGN? CGN could fit a few more cities on the two islands just SouthWest of CFC.

	11-04-2004 17:39									#15
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by BigFree I don't like the idea of giving CGN too many conditions for this loan. It may makle them a bit resentful as Togas said earlier. If we play this right we will have two Civ's supporting us while GWT only has one.

I agree What do you think about the Lend Lease program: "Workers for Gold"?

quote: Originally posted by BigFree Has anyone asked CFC if they would be willing to give up their island to CGN? CGN could fit a few more cities on the two islands just SouthWest of CFC.

No one had speciofically mentioned it, but I believe it came up in chat very briefly. (And I cant remember which one )

	11-04-2004 17:42									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

NOTICE: WE ARE HOLDING THE SAVE!!!!!!!!!!

Until we get the conditions for this loan finalized. We are going to try and meet with CGN online today sometime after 1800 GMT.

So if you have input into the loan then please speak your mind as soon as possible!

Thanks

	11-04-2004 17:45									#17
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Assuming we will eventually get everything we can out of CGN, including workers, a portion of their income, etc, why bother wasting cash on them now?

	11-04-2004 23:57									#18
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by civman2000 Assuming we will eventually get everything we can out of CGN, including workers, a portion of their income, etc, why bother wasting cash on them now?

As con posted, the workers are not a certain thing. CGN is not the militarily smartest team around, so they could end up losing them when they think they're protected/out of harm's way. And muk is most definitely not the best SMC around; he mentioned using the workers against GWT (I guess to try to slow them down as if they were the AI).

If we get some workers now, however, those workers will be safe over here, protected from their commander's mistakes.