10-04-2004 22:18									#1
	Social Engineering Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I think that social engineering is poorly designed. Isn't knowledge obsolete to wealth?

	10-04-2004 22:25									#2
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

not at all. what makes you think that? knowledge gives you +efficiency and ++research, and wealth is +economy and +industry, with --morale, which really hurts. +1 economy is really not that much at all. I really only run wealth if I can't run knowledge, or if i'm a faction that it doesn't suit...like the drones.

EDIT, if you think social engineering is poorly designed...gee, i don't want to know what you think of governments in civ...

	10-04-2004 22:32									#3
	Increase the size of your Attachments

civ3 is the worst tbs I ever played. Alphacentauri is the best game I've ever played. When I chose the value, I noticed that wealth offers shorter research intervals and more income. Who cares about morale?

	10-04-2004 22:38									#4
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who cares about morale? people who are at war? people who didn't get the command nexus or cyborg factory? people who are running free market and need to deal with mind worms?

anyhow...I guess it would depend on other things also, like your other SE settings, your faction, commerce, and other such things...Like, if you're the drones or believers, then +1 economy might speed research more than +2 research would?

	11-04-2004 04:32									#5
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If you really think one SE choice is completely superior to another, you can change it in the alpha.txt file.

	11-04-2004 05:04									#6
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Yo, d=me, I have to agree. Since I use probe teams, I could care less about morale. The +1 economy and +1 industry are worth it, especially when combined with free market and Eudaimonia

	12-04-2004 04:10									#7
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Later in the game, you might receive most of your income from specialists, and build most of your facilities and units with energy credits. At this point, +1 economy and +1 industry is substantially inferior to +2 research.

	12-04-2004 04:15									#8
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I find wealth often gives me the same techs per turn as knowledge, with the bonus of more money (energy). what more could you ask for?

	12-04-2004 08:09									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Have to agree with you there, Dissident. The tech rate is usually the same, the only difference is +1 effic of +1 indust, and -2 morale or -2 probe.

	12-04-2004 11:23									#10
	Remove this text

Ok, well...I can't seem to get a quicker research rate with wealth. Maybe it might have something to do with the fact that the difference between +2 econ and +3 econ is just a commerce rate thing (er, i think at least)

	12-04-2004 15:35									#11
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Knowledge out-techs wealth once your bases are more mature (which reduces the impact of the larger energy in the base square) and if you aren't getting much commerce and aren't reliant on the +1 econ of wealth to get to +2 econ, or conversely are using a lot of specialists to garner labs vs raw energy. Knowledge gives a 20% decrease in the number of labs necessary for each tech, and a small bonus to raw energy due the the increase in efficiency.

Wealth on the other hand can greatly increase raw energy if it puts you into the +2 econ zone and you are working a lot of moderate or zero energy producing tiles like forest (100% increase in energy, or 50% if you have hybrid forests) or farms / mines etc. It gives much smaller boni to boreholes, tidal harnesses, and solar panels at higher altitudes / with echelon mirrors to pump up their energy production. The only way wealth is going to be standing in your way from getting to +2 econ is:

You are Morgan and aren't running FM

You aren't running FM but are keeping bases in Golden Ages

You are the Hive and are running FM but still need wealth to get to +2 econ

(that all assumes that the future SE choices are still unavailable)

How much of that increased raw energy is going to labs depends on your energy allocation and losses from inefficiency. The last factor in wealth is commerce income, which is heavily influenced by what your raw energy output is, how many trading partners your bases have, and how much energy your trading partners produce. I tend to think this factor tends to be a wash vs the increase in efficiency of knowledge.

Wealth is very good in the early game without a doubt, as the bonus to base square income can be as much or more of a percentage increase in energy output as FM is later. The bonus to industry is always nice as well. But the way I play knowledge begins to take precedence over wealth in the mid game, or sometimes earlier if I'm at war. It depends completely on your play style though.

One more note, the University runs into a problem in the mid to late game where they can get up to +6 in research with the knowledge and cybernetic SE choices iirc. As +6 research produces the same benefit as +5 research (a 50% discount on tech prices) it may make other SE choices more appealing.

	13-04-2004 03:05									#12
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Sikander One more note, the University runs into a problem in the mid to late game where they can get up to +6 in research with the knowledge and cybernetic SE choices iirc. As +6 research produces the same benefit as +5 research (a 50% discount on tech prices) it may make other SE choices more appealing.

Has this actually been confirmed beyond the text in the SE screen?

	13-04-2004 03:07									#13
	Put an end to popups!

I'm a convert.

Fundamentalist all the way!!!

the main problem with the believers is the 3rd social engineering choice. They can't choose knowledge, so they are stuck with Wealth and Power. Wealth has a morale hit, and power has an industry hit. Which should I choose?

	13-04-2004 03:15									#14
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Well the extra support boost from Power will also give you the 'support as many as you base pop for free' ....or whatever it is called. That is rather impressive with a size 14 base

If you are running FM, then wealth isnt all that important, or running planned to help damage control on the industry rating. But don't listen too closely to me, a Fundy expert I am not

	13-04-2004 03:59									#15
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Knowledge can often bring more tech than wealth in the later game. It depends on the game situation-- The added efficiency of knowledge can be a suprising boost

Likewise I find when I have a vast empire with many many bases that "green" might bring in as much energy as FM despite losing 1 energy per tile by going down from a +2 ECON rating. I guess the reduced inefficiency counter balances the lost energy-- I have never done the mathematics on it . . . all I know is that it seems to work out. Add in that Green is preferable for the Planet rating ( and growth is often irrelevant) and I often find myself in Demo/green/knowledge in the late game

I hardly look at the future society ones since the game is over by the time I've ever gotten to them.

	13-04-2004 06:30									#16
	Got spare money?

If you have that many bases, consider eliminating your HQ - found a base, rush a HQ, and raze the base. Now all your bases count as 16 tiles from your HQ. They each suffer the following fractional loss to inefficiency:

2 / (4 + effic)

	13-04-2004 11:06									#17
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Interesting Idea Chaos Theory. I never considerd that the No HQ calculation could actualy improve your overall Efficiency.

I most games I try to get the HQ in a nice central position at the heart of my Empire and will move it around as needed to maitain that central position.

But you were playing on a very large map with a very spread out empire I see how you could get a net incresses in output by lacking a HQ.

By the way has anyone ever though it rather silly that Distance from the HQ determines how much Energy is wasted in the 22nd Century

Its obviously one of the many hold overs from Civ2 ware it makes sense for most of the game upto say the idustrial age, Communism I belive would eliminate the distance calculation and use a rather high fixed number to calculate efficiency in all bases just like the no HQ rule in SMAC. Interesting huuu

	13-04-2004 11:20									#18
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I guess that was supposed to be some sort of deterrance to building huge sprawling empires.

But you still make more research and energy by building more cities. It's not nearly as bad as corruption in civ3 .

Well I finished my other game. I was running fundamentalism/green/power. Power wasn't as bad as I thought it was. I was the believers btw. It was an interesting game. I just wish I got more points for a conquest victory .

	13-04-2004 12:35									#19
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Impaler[WrG] By the way has anyone ever though it rather silly that Distance from the HQ determines how much Energy is wasted in the 22nd Century

Yup. I would imagine the the size of the society would have a greater impact on energy loss through Inefficiency than distance from the HQ.

quote: Its obviously one of the many hold overs from Civ2 ware it makes sense for most of the game upto say the idustrial age, Communism I belive would eliminate the distance calculation and use a rather high fixed number to calculate efficiency in all bases just like the no HQ rule in SMAC. Interesting huuu

It'd be neat if some technology removed distance-from-HQ related Inefficiency. Planetary Networks would work, but its too early - maybe Planetary Economics, or Sentient Econometrics?

	13-04-2004 15:03									#20
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quote: Originally posted by livid imp Has this actually been confirmed beyond the text in the SE screen?

Not by me, it's hearsay. It looks like a design decision to cap all of the discounts at 50%.