11-04-2004 17:55									#1
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right! do you build formers or rover formers, or both or no formers at all? (rover former is a former with 2 movement points) just started to wonder this on the other day.

EDIT1: I allways play as Spartans so I have Doctrine: Mobility aveilable from the start.
EDIT2: and yes, I only build rover formers.

	11-04-2004 18:06									#2
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Its all a question of mins. In the early game its formers only.

	11-04-2004 18:22									#3
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Only Formers. I like to win.

In the early game building Rover Formers is just not ecomomical, and in the late game you have former power to spare.

-Jam

	11-04-2004 19:17									#4
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I like to build one rover former at soon as I can do it in 5-6 turns. It really helps in getting that road built one turn sooner so the rest of the team can start to work.

	11-04-2004 20:43									#5
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Net warrior, thats why I go with infantry transports.

It allows you to get that infantry former onto a rocky square and it can start roading immediately, repeat with another infantrytransport and former combo thus allowing the remainder of the former army a move along a road and immediate mining and/or boreholing. No down time regardless of terrain type.

Which bring me to my ratioanle for gang forming. The gang forming is most effective because it eliminates the penalty of movement (i.e. lost forme turns). The more spread out your former legions the more losses you normally take due to movement. Ganging them (especially with infanty transports) likely means never losing former turns to movement.

	12-04-2004 00:12									#6
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Ogie, could you explain in more detail what you're meaning please? I usually use rover formers, but what you're describing seems better, if only I understood it properly.

	12-04-2004 02:13									#7
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I think he means and infantry unit with the transport pod on it.

	12-04-2004 02:17									#8
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I don't see the point. You can begin terroforming the minute you move into a square, even if you have no movement points left. It could make getting into fungus easier I guess.

	12-04-2004 03:26									#9
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I didn't know land units could transport stuff. It's something I've never thought of trying. Gang forming I assume is meaning using 4 formers to create a farm in 1 turn instead of 1 former to create a farm in 4 turns, and that sort of thing. That's what I usually do when I have enough formers.

	12-04-2004 04:17									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Dansz I didn't know land units could transport stuff.

If you've only played SP then you've probably never encountered this, as the AI's will never build land transports, and if even assisted by a CMN giving AI Factions land transports, the AI has no clue how to use them. The AI cannot even use aircraft carriers effectively, as they just ferry the units from base to base.
The only transport the AI uses effectively is a sea tranport for carrying land units. FYI.

D

	12-04-2004 04:54									#11
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Formers and sea formers only.

Once in a long while I may see it fit to build a drop former

	12-04-2004 05:51									#12
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rover formers after fusion power. If for some reason i'm playing so late in the game that they become something to look into, Hovertank formers or even gravship formers

	12-04-2004 08:03									#13
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The thing with formers is, you don't need speed. On a large planet, you might build one or two rover formers to build roads, but that's it. Since most formers terraform squares in close proximities, there's no point in giving the speed. And, as Jamski said, it just isn't economical, and really isn't worth it.

	12-04-2004 11:19									#14
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you don't _need_ them, no...but you don't _need_ your left arm either

	12-04-2004 13:42									#15
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But your left arm allows you to do so much more in the same amount of time. A rover former is just kinda nifty.

	12-04-2004 15:25									#16
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I wonder if anyone will really actually choose the "None" option?

I almost always use regular formers, unless its late into the game and I can easily crank out a rover/gravship/hover former in a couple turns, then I might make some of those.

	12-04-2004 20:00									#17
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Early I live with just regular formers but I am learning the benefit of having just a couple of the rover variety to serve as roadlayers

	12-04-2004 21:20									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe thats why I go with infantry transports. It allows you to get that infantry former onto a rocky square and it can start roading immediately, repeat with another infantrytransport and former combo thus allowing the remainder of the former army a move along a road and immediate mining and/or boreholing. No down time regardless of terrain type.

That sounds good and all, but do infantry transports really end up paying for themselves given the support costs and the mins/queue time to build them

	12-04-2004 22:52									#19
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quote: Originally posted by livid imp That sounds good and all, but do infantry transports really end up paying for themselves given the support costs and the mins/queue time to build them

Yep,

I need to dig up the example but I proved to myself once upon a time how 12 formers and 4 infantry transports out t-form 16 formers. (all having the same min cost and support).

	12-04-2004 22:56									#20
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But with 4 infantry transports, only 4 formers can be moved. At least, I thought that the land transports can only take one unit onboard. What then with those other 8 terraformers?

	12-04-2004 23:13									#21
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You use the transported units to premake roads. I road everywhere. The remaining 8 follow afterwards entering squares with a 1/3 movement point and t-forming immediately. In doing so you can get 2 forests laid every turn (w/o weather paradigm) and never have to worry about losing t-forming turns to movement of formers.

	12-04-2004 23:46									#22
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I normally let 1 former already start on the next road while a small group makes an enhancement on the previous tile.

Less loss of working turns then, but I try your transport idea out.

	13-04-2004 00:02									#23
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And don't you have to have D:Flexiblity to get the transport unit? How does that factor in with the beeline to IA?

	13-04-2004 00:36									#24
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It is a detour after IA for most factions. It is a natural for the Pirates who start with D:Flex.

	13-04-2004 00:39									#25
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Geo Modder,

It also helps big time when considereing an early war. use of land transport to bring a probe team or infantry best weapon unit next to a base is invaluable. If you use a road you can likewise have the exhausted/wounded infantry unit retreat so that it avoids counter attack.

Considered most useful in war time pre-air power.

	13-04-2004 02:33									#26
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I don't understand the advantage of the infantry transport. You use 2 mineral support to get a road layed each turn with the trans/former ( ) combination. Isn't that equvalent to using two formers on seperate tiles to lay roads?

One former starts building a road while the 2nd former moves to an unroaded square. Next turn the 1st former's road is finished so he moves to an unroaded square while the 2nd former builds his road.

I can see where a rover former would give turn-advantage though.

	13-04-2004 02:37									#27
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I like the "discount" the standard former receives on the "Clean" modification. Instead of 2 rows it costs only 1.

	13-04-2004 06:43									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns I don't understand the advantage of the infantry transport. You use 2 mineral support to get a road layed each turn with the trans/former ( ) combination. Isn't that equvalent to using two formers on seperate tiles to lay roads? One former starts building a road while the 2nd former moves to an unroaded square. Next turn the 1st former's road is finished so he moves to an unroaded square while the 2nd former builds his road. I can see where a rover former would give turn-advantage though.

The advantage is you never have to lose a former turn due to a move of an infantry former. At some point you lose a turn moving a former into position sometimes you lose a number of former turns due to moves. The minimum of two infantry transports (preferably four) allows you to transport formers and immediately road thus allowing other formers t-forming. In the example you give, you give up former turns to move formers into position. This should never be a problem with use of transports.

Its like this you can seperate all x amount of formers and have them work their own squares. Bad idea. Each time a square is completely t-formed you need move a forme into position. Hence x former turns wsated.

You can decide to have them gang form. Better idea but fraught with some issues. At some point, excess formers will be without a road to move into and will waste turns moving into position. best case this is only one or two that can then road a new square before the rest of the gang finishes up. Realistically this is normally a minimum of 2 former turns wasted for a 6 former cycle. (2 to road 4 for a forest square) That means you have to have moved 2 formers into the next square and done road forming work prior to the others (4 in the case of the foresting) completing their task. Its even worse once the t-forming gets quicker (ie. Weather paradigm) then the loss becomes 2 out of 5.

I know the explanantion is kind of muddled but trust me it saves time.

	13-04-2004 08:28									#29
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But the infantry transport has the same cost as a former. So 1 former + 1 transporter = 2 formers in terms of mineral support.

Transport + former
Turn 1 -> Move and build road.
Turn 2 -> Move and build road.
Turn 3 -> Move and build road.
Turn 4 -> Move and build road.
Turn 5 -> Move and build road.
Turn 6 -> Move and build road.
Net result: 6 new roads.

2 formers
Turn 1 -> F1 and F2 move on unroaded squares.
Turn 2 -> F1 and F2 build roads.
Turn 3 -> F1 and F2 move on unroaded squares.
Turn 4 -> F1 and F2 build roads.
Turn 5 -> F1 and F2 move on unroaded squares.
Turn 6 -> F1 and F2 build roads.
Net result: 6 new roads.

The same results, but a pair of formers can also be used for other duties when all road building is completed.

Last edited by Skanky Burns on 13-04-2004 at 08:34

	13-04-2004 08:34									#30
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And if you consider where roads take more than one turn to complete, the case for inf. transporters gets worse.

Transport + former
Turn 1 -> Move and build road.
Turn 2 -> Finish road.
Turn 3 -> Move and build road.
Turn 4 -> Finish road.
Turn 5 -> Move and build road.
Turn 6 -> Finish road.
Net result: 3 new roads.

2 formers
Turn 1 -> F1 and F2 move on unroaded squares.
Turn 2 -> F1 and F2 build road.
Turn 3 -> F1 and F2 finish roads.
Turn 4 -> F1 and F2 move on unroaded squares.
Turn 5 -> F1 and F2 build roads.
Turn 6 -> F1 and F2 finish roads.
Net result: 4 new roads.

Last edited by Skanky Burns on 13-04-2004 at 08:41