11-04-2004 23:35									#1
	What would you change... Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

...About the weaker factions of SMAC/X to make them stronger? And what would you do to some of the stronger factions to make them a bit weaker/more balenced?

I personaly would have given Cult 25% PSI attack bonus, Pirates +1 Commerce, Morgan a -1 population limit instead of -2, Spartans +1 Support and give the Hive robust efficiency, rather than totaly immunity to negatives.

	12-04-2004 02:13									#2
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

hive is weak?

for some reason in the game I was playing last night Hive was #1. I couldn't figure out why.

What are the weaker factions? I don't have smacX.

For my games it seems to be the spartans and morganites. The believers start out strong, but they start to fade by midgame.

	12-04-2004 04:35									#3
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

The computer-controlled Hive tends to build hundreds of bases and thousands of units and overwhelm people. As a result they often end up with entire continents under their sway and when you challenge them you have to grind through base after heavily defended base.

The computer-controlled Morgans are a pile of crap. I've been considering modifying their faction attributes and / or abilities to make them a little tougher.

	12-04-2004 06:01									#4
	Re: What would you change... Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Quezacotl06 ...About the weaker factions of SMAC/X to make them stronger? And what would you do to some of the stronger factions to make them a bit weaker/more balenced?

Heah Queztacoatl06,

from my experience some Factions are weak under certain circumstances, while being strong under others, and vice versa. Personally when setting up an SP game I choose a map and populate it with Factions that do well under the circumstances I have selected, thus presenting more of a challenge.
However, I also make a lot of games designed specifically for others to play, and manipulate the playing environment to favour desired Factions.
So, to summarize, IMO the base 14 Factions are not necessarily weak, if employed correctly. I think we were given a shotgun spread of Factions, which if selected coherently, can give very good gameplay over a broad spectrum of games/ circumstances: we just have to employ them properly.



D

	12-04-2004 10:24									#5
	Suffering from ads?

there are so many variable factors that change.

In my latest game hive got wiped out by the spartans. And they started on those 3 thermal boreholes.

	12-04-2004 15:27									#6
	Remove this text

Yea I've seen just about every faction do good in a game and every faction do bad. I think a lot of it just depends on blind luck.

	12-04-2004 15:41									#7
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Dissident there are so many variable factors that change. In my latest game hive got wiped out by the spartans. And they started on those 3 thermal boreholes.

That's not much of an advantage if they never manage to get restrictions lifted.

	12-04-2004 19:58									#8
	Support Apolyton

I agree with Darsnan

Take the cult-- On large or huge maps or if you play with lesser life forms, they have a tough time since those are really "builder" settings. But try the cult on a tiny to standard map and just for fun have abundant natives and see how they do.
Ditto with the spartans and believers

Think about it this way . . . would you want to play the university on a tiny map ?? Probably not.


I think that most discussions of weaker factions usually end up being biased in that we are thinking larger maps and builder style games-- If you think of all the possibilities, you can see many situations where the factions you see as weaker can shine

	12-04-2004 21:08									#9
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Think about it this way . . . would you want to play the university on a tiny map ?? Probably not.

Don't see why not. In these conditions you can trancsend by 2180.

-Jam

	12-04-2004 21:16									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Jamski Don't see why not. In these conditions you can trancsend by 2180. -Jam

Or be trounced by hordes of Hive units in 2125 . . . or a wave of elite spartans or data angel probe teams etc etc.

	12-04-2004 23:41									#11
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Flubber I agree with Darsnan Take the cult-- On large or huge maps or if you play with lesser life forms, they have a tough time since those are really "builder" settings. But try the cult on a tiny to standard map and just for fun have abundant natives and see how they do. Ditto with the spartans and believers Think about it this way . . . would you want to play the university on a tiny map ?? Probably not. I think that most discussions of weaker factions usually end up being biased in that we are thinking larger maps and builder style games-- If you think of all the possibilities, you can see many situations where the factions you see as weaker can shine

So by this logic, wouldn't only be fair to usually play standard maps in MP game to give the momentum factions a chance?

And I totally agree weak can dominate under differing conditions, but the stronger factions will do well even in conditions which are less than optimal.

If the Cult began with Brood Pits (a la Hive with perimeter defense) rather than gaining them with the prereq tech (which is too far into the game to matter), they could be a stronger faction.

The Pirates could be a resonable faction if they got a subsea trunkline for free as well.

Morgan either needs the hab limit raised or the support penalty eliminated so he can run democracy without units costing double support.

Spartans could use +1 support to help with all the police and offensive units they will have. But I am not sure they really need it that much as I have yet to run them as all specialists.

	13-04-2004 00:08									#12
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by livid imp So by this logic, wouldn't only be fair to usually play standard maps in MP game to give the momentum factions a chance?

Nope-- players choose whatever faction they want based on the game settings .. .If the map chosen were tiny, I'm betting that the spartans and believers would have more fans.

	13-04-2004 00:20									#13
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by livid imp And I totally agree weak can dominate under differing conditions, but the stronger factions will do well even in conditions which are less than optimal.

See!! this is the builder bias we all have. A smaller fungusy map is seen as less than optimal LOL.

Seriously . . . I think certain factions are more suitable to specific conditions. Some other factions, The hive and gaians come to mind remain, to me, equally playable regardless of map size.

Some others like the university and Morgan seem to do better on larger maps .. . I'm not saying they are unplayable on small maps, just tougher against intelligent opposition

	13-04-2004 00:31									#14
	Increase Your PM Length

You took that wrong, let me reiterate:

And I totally agree weak can dominate under differing conditions, but the stronger factions will do well even in conditions which are less than optimal for the particular faction in question.

	13-04-2004 00:52									#15
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Flubber Nope-- players choose whatever faction they want based on the game settings .. .If the map chosen were tiny, I'm betting that the spartans and believers would have more fans.

Sorry, I was under the assumption that the factions were picked first. Disregard my previous statement.

	13-04-2004 12:16									#16
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by livid imp If the Cult began with Brood Pits (a la Hive with perimeter defense) rather than gaining them with the prereq tech (which is too far into the game to matter), they could be a stronger faction.

I believe that you only receive free facilities when you receive the pre-requiste technology; that is why the University of Planet has free Network Nodes (they start with Information Networks) and the Human Hive has free Perimeter Defences (they start with Doctrine: Loyalty). In order to give the Cult of Planet free Brood Pits when the game started, you'd need to give them Centauri Genetics (and, thus, the ability to build air units at the start of the game).

quote: The Pirates could be a resonable faction if they got a subsea trunkline for free as well.

Or a +1 INDUSTRY? I have been thinking about doing this for my alphax.txt.

quote: Morgan either needs the hab limit raised or the support penalty eliminated so he can run democracy without units costing double support.

Morgan seems fine to me. Nothing is stopping Morgan from running Power Values and Thought Control FS.

	13-04-2004 15:20									#17
	Remove this text

the more I think about this, the more I think the morganites need a boost.

As we said above, most factions can be good under certain conditions. But I rarely see the morganites do anything. I think maybe in only 1 game have they ever been significant. And even then they had little chance of winning.

My last game their bases only had one defender.

One possible problem is the AI isn't using probe teams correctly. I notice they build a lot of probe teams, but I'm not sure if they are using them correctly. Perhaps someone has researched this, and can correct me here. Proper probe team usage would also help the believers out as well.

The Spartans tend to lag as well, but if they build up some momentum they can often roll over the nearest faction or two. But after that, they lag.

	13-04-2004 16:21									#18
	Tired of ads?

I think that there is a world of difference between how the AI and how real people handle a faction. The AI can make a hash of almost anything - that the AI does badly as a given faction should not be used as a measurement of how good or bad a given faction is, IMO.

Instead improvement of factions should be based on what it is like to play them ourselves (or how useful they are in MP games). Only this can give us a sensible indication of whether a faction is in need of improvements.

	13-04-2004 23:54									#19
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Trithemius I believe that you only receive free facilities when you receive the pre-requiste technology

Yup, you are right that wouldn't work. Still the Cult needs a boost, any ideas?

quote: Originally posted by Trithemius Or a +1 INDUSTRY? I have been thinking about doing this for my alphax.txt.

That is a good idea, but how do you justify it to the role players?
edit: maybe a increased support rating? They could really terrorize the seas with even more ships. And you could justify it to the role players as captured/Shanghi'ed (sp?) people and vessels. Of course this might just make them twice as iritating.

quote: Originally posted by Trithemius Morgan seems fine to me. Nothing is stopping Morgan from running Power Values and Thought Control FS.

Morgan was right there on the edge for me. He doesn't need the help all that badly. But the support and hab problems are the things that keep them from being a superstar faction in my eyes. Still a very capable faction.

Future Society models are just too late to really bother considering them. And morgan using power, is a morgan not using wealth. Morgan running wealth is what Morgan is all about in my eyes. Rather than running power, I'd run PS/Green/Wealth to mitigate the support problems. Of course by the time you can do that you are approaching Clean reactors.

	14-04-2004 12:40									#20
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by livid imp Yup, you are right that wouldn't work. Still the Cult needs a boost, any ideas?

Morale improvements? Fanatic bonus (does a Fanatic bonus apply to Psi combat too?)?

quote: That is a good idea, but how do you justify it to the role players? edit: maybe a increased support rating? They could really terrorize the seas with even more ships. And you could justify it to the role players as captured/Shanghi'ed (sp?) people and vessels. Of course this might just make them twice as iritating.

I am justifying the +1 INDUSTRY by linking it to the Pirates abilities to scrounge - it ties in with the emergence of Svensgaard's faction in the timeline I wrote for a scenario idea I had... shameless plug.

quote: Future Society models are just too late to really bother considering them. And morgan using power, is a morgan not using wealth. Morgan running wealth is what Morgan is all about in my eyes. Rather than running power, I'd run PS/Green/Wealth to mitigate the support problems. Of course by the time you can do that you are approaching Clean reactors.

If Morgan wants to be a military power then I guess he'd have to change to Power; if you can keep Wealth and be as effective militarily as people running Power then something is very wrong, in my mind.

	16-04-2004 00:24									#21
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Trithemius Morale improvements? Fanatic bonus (does a Fanatic bonus apply to Psi combat too?)?

If it does apply to psi, that would actually make a lot of sense too.

quote: Originally posted by Trithemius I am justifying the +1 INDUSTRY by linking it to the Pirates abilities to scrounge

Ennhh....don't know if I buy it. That is an awful lot of scrounging. Still no major problems with it, and the pirates do need a strong boost.

quote: Originally posted by Trithemius If Morgan wants to be a military power then I guess he'd have to change to Power; if you can keep Wealth and be as effective militarily as people running Power then something is very wrong, in my mind.

That is the whole beauty of Morgan. He can have a +2 Econ without FM. Making it viable to fight wars without losing that +2 Econ. Plus I never take power SE cause the -2 industry is just too crippling both in and out of war. As Morgan you should be building a clean reactor army long before any major conflicts anyway.