19-04-2004 17:55									#211
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quote: So there are to be divisions in heaven? What evidence in Scripture is there for this position?

1 Corinthians 15
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

quote: These two statements are contradictory. If Christ is begotten, he is not created, nor made by God.

Then please explain the definition of begotten.

quote: If he's created, like us, then he isn't God's Son, in the sense that he is God, just as much as God the Father.

quote: Well, that's what Verto and I are grappling over. Definition of the Trinity. So far, it's not clear whether they believe in the Trinity or not.

We believe that the Father, Christ and the Holy Ghost are individual beings, One in purpose.

	19-04-2004 18:01									#212
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quote: Originally posted by Chaunk Hebrews goes further than saying that Christ comes from the same authority line. "Long ago... God spoke... by the prophets." Finished, done, not carrying on still.

Ephesians 4:

11 And he gave some, apostles [i.e., some were ordained to be apostles]; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Matthew 23:

Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city...

Revelation 11:10 also prophesies of two prophets who in the last days will be killed in Jerusalem.

	20-04-2004 17:16									#213
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quote: These two statements are contradictory. If Christ is begotten, he is not created, nor made by God. Nor was he created at some time by the Father, but that he was begotten before all worlds. He is uncreated, just as the Father is uncreated, he is eternal, just as the Father.

Christ is the Firstborn Son of the Living God, the Only Begotten in the Flesh.

Is it your belief that God, Christ and the Holy Spirit are one being?

	21-04-2004 08:52									#214
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quote: Then please explain the definition of begotten.

Good question.

CS Lewis has a good explanation of the difference between making and begetting. It has to do with the substances. When you beget, it is like procreation, the begotten is of the same substance as you. Now, the fact is that God's relationship to Christ is not exactly like that of a father and his son, there are numerous differences, but because these differences stem from the nature of God, it is easiest to understand the relationship in this way.

Now, CS Lewis says when you create something, you make something out of a different substance than yourself. It's like a potter moulding clay. The clay is of a different substance than the potter. This is the analogy of our relationship to God. He makes us like the potter makes a bowl. We are not of the same substance of God, but we still bear the mark of his creation, just as the bowls bear the mark from the potter.

quote: We believe that the Father, Christ and the Holy Ghost are individual beings, One in purpose.

That is different from the Trinity. If they are individual beings, then do you not have 3 gods? The Trinity talks of three persons, distinct, yet indivisible.

I know this is really tough, but I don't know how I can make this any easier to understand. One explanation is to see the trinity like a triangle. You have three distinct points that can be distinguished from each other, yet you only have one triangle. Each of the points are the persons in the Trinity, whereas the triangle represents the Godhead.

quote: Is it your belief that God, Christ and the Holy Spirit are one being?

Yes. The Father begets the Son, and the Spirit proceeds from the love between the Father and the Son.

quote: 11 And he gave some, apostles [i.e., some were ordained to be apostles]; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

But again, the Apostles are no longer available because there exist no more witnesses here on Earth to the death and resurrection of Christ.

quote: Revelation 11:10 also prophesies of two prophets who in the last days will be killed in Jerusalem.

Prophets are not apostles. I grant you the point, that God will continue to use Prophets, but only the Apostles can revise or add onto Scripture. And there are no more of them left.

	21-04-2004 17:31									#215
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi CS Lewis has a good explanation of the difference between making and begetting. It has to do with the substances. When you beget, it is like procreation, the begotten is of the same substance as you. Now, the fact is that God's relationship to Christ is not exactly like that of a father and his son, there are numerous differences, but because these differences stem from the nature of God, it is easiest to understand the relationship in this way. Now, CS Lewis says when you create something, you make something out of a different substance than yourself. It's like a potter moulding clay. The clay is of a different substance than the potter. This is the analogy of our relationship to God. He makes us like the potter makes a bowl. We are not of the same substance of God, but we still bear the mark of his creation, just as the bowls bear the mark from the potter.

Excellent analogy - I have a lot of respect for C.S. Lewis. Although the LDS believe we were created as spirit children by God.

quote: That is different from the Trinity. If they are individual beings, then do you not have 3 gods? The Trinity talks of three persons, distinct, yet indivisible.

Three gods, in a way, but only one God.

quote: I know this is really tough, but I don't know how I can make this any easier to understand. One explanation is to see the trinity like a triangle. You have three distinct points that can be distinguished from each other, yet you only have one triangle. Each of the points are the persons in the Trinity, whereas the triangle represents the Godhead.

And so we view the three as united(One) in purpose, but distinct beings.

quote: But again, the Apostles are no longer available because there exist no more witnesses here on Earth to the death and resurrection of Christ.

Where in the scriptures does Christ say he will no longer allow apostles? From the days of Adam, God has established prophets among his people to direct them, and I see no reason for Him to stop, closing the heavens to man.

quote: Prophets are not apostles. I grant you the point, that God will continue to use Prophets, but only the Apostles can revise or add onto Scripture. And there are no more of them left.

What do you base this on?

	22-04-2004 07:07									#216
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quote: Yes, I would go to Hell, if the Mormons are right, and rightfully so.

This is not necessarily true. In fact, I would wager it is not true at all. Simply because one is not a member of the Church should not and does not negate all the good and righteous works one accomplished. You do not deny God, and as far as I know lead a good, decent life and abide by your moral, religious convictions.

	22-04-2004 07:10									#217
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Verto, that comes into direct contradiction from what I've been told.
Mormons have literally told me that unless I join the church I am going to suffer in hell for eternity.

Being Mormon is a prerequisite for entering heaven.

	22-04-2004 16:15									#218
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It is certainly difficult to understand the "babtism" thing unless that is the belief of those who employ their time doing it

If what God is actually interested in is to the beliefs and the deeds of each individual then searching records for names and so on is pointless. It is only if you think that God could not care less about the faith/works of each person but rather what He does care about is the searching out of the names and the ceremonial that follows it that anyone would bother.

Which is not altogether surprising. The quotes from Joseph Smith's Testimony earlier in the thread make it pretty clear that names and rituals are what the guy was interested in.

	22-04-2004 17:20									#219
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Verto, that comes into direct contradiction from what I've been told. Mormons have literally told me that unless I join the church I am going to suffer in hell for eternity. Being Mormon is a prerequisite for entering heaven.

If you die, and have not joined the Church, you are not automatically going to Hell.

	22-04-2004 17:24									#220
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quote: Originally posted by East Street Trader It is certainly difficult to understand the "babtism" thing unless that is the belief of those who employ their time doing it If what God is actually interested in is to the beliefs and the deeds of each individual then searching records for names and so on is pointless. It is only if you think that God could not care less about the faith/works of each person but rather what He does care about is the searching out of the names and the ceremonial that follows it that anyone would bother.

I don't see how giving everyone the opportunity to be baptized and accept the Gospel shows that God does not care for the works and faith of His children.

	22-04-2004 17:48									#221
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Then you must explain what the benefit to everyone is.

Those seeking out the names and performing the ritual think that the benefit they are confering is entry into heaven.

But you say not so - that is a matter of God's judgment of the individual's faith and works.

So what, as you see it, is the benefit to the souls of the dead people?

	23-04-2004 02:32									#222
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quote: Originally posted by East Street Trader Then you must explain what the benefit to everyone is. Those seeking out the names and performing the ritual think that the benefit they are confering is entry into heaven. But you say not so - that is a matter of God's judgment of the individual's faith and works. So what, as you see it, is the benefit to the souls of the dead people?

When we die, our spirits go to Spirit Paradise, or to Spirit Prison, where we wait for the Resurrection and Judgement. Spirit Prison is a place for those people who rejected the gospel, and for people who died without a knowledge of it.

The gospel is preached to those in spirit prison - those who accept the gospel and repent are allowed to go to Spirit Paradise. Those who do not accept the gospel will suffer for their sins but eventually be resurrected and allowed to go to the Telestial Kingdom, the lowest degree and kingdom of glory, reserved for those who reject the teachings of Christ, for liars, 'sorcers, adulterers, and whoremongers'.

Those who rejected the gospel during their time on Earth, but accepted it in the Spirit World, will go to the the next degree of glory, the Terrestial Kingdom - this is reserved for those who were honest and good, but blinded by the craftiness of men and for those who were not as valiant in their testimony of Christ.

The highest kingdom is the Celestial Kingdom. Those who attain celestial glory are those who received a testim[/b]ony of Christ, [b]were baptized by one with the priesthood authority, kept the commandments, received the gift of the Holy Ghost [done following baptism], "overcame the world by faith". Also, those who die without a knowledge of the gospel but "would have received it with all their hearts", and those who died before they reached the years of accountability - IOW, those who died before reaching the age of 8, after which we are held accountable for our actions and believed capable of sinning.

	23-04-2004 19:27									#223
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Thank you Verto, that is very clear.

The name search ritual does not seem to have any part to play as regards spirit prison or the Terrestial Kingdom So I take it that the ritual makes good both the lack of babtism as a mormon during life and also confers posthumously the gift of the holy ghost (or else someone in heaven takes over after the ritual is complete and makes that gift).

In which case the benefit confered is that if the person whose name is found is someone who kept the comandments and overcame the world by faith they now qualify for entry to the Celestial Kingdom whereas before the ritual is performed they don't.

Although quite where a spirit in that group fit in if they do not have the good luck to have their name show up somewhere and get included in the ritual I don't know.

I am afraid I still think this is a weird arrangement for your God to make. Walt Disney's idea of making entry to the Magic Kingdom depend upon whether a fee is paid seems rather more understandable that your God's idea of confering or denying entry on the basis of whether someone's name is found in a record and whether a ritual is performed.

Although I guess you are hardly unusual in thinking your God likes rituals. There have been as many rituals as there have been religious beliefs. And this no odder than many others.

	24-04-2004 02:18									#224
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quote: Walt Disney's idea of making entry to the Magic Kingdom depend upon whether a fee is paid seems rather more understandable that your God's idea of confering or denying entry on the basis of whether someone's name is found in a record and whether a ritual is performed.

I think I need to clear up something regarding the records. It is not a matter of if your name is on the record, you are lucky and get to go to Heaven.. The records are a compilation of family and individual names through geneology. We do extensive geneological research to find our ancestors so that we can perform ordinances for them. This work is neverending. No one will be denied access to Heaven simply because they weren't 'lucky enough' to be on the list.

	24-04-2004 09:22									#225
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Verto:

Why there should be no more Apostles, from my earlier post.


Acts 1:21-22

"Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from John's baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection."

For this is why there can be no more Apostles. There are none remaining as witnesses to Christ.