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Snowflake is offline Snowflake
Princess
falling, once again
Apr 2003
time: 23:35
  Old Post 12-04-2004 23:10
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When do you PWN the AIs in an SP game? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I was bored last night so I started an SP game. I was not in the lead until after I discovered IA. Having not completed even one transcend SP game myself, I'm curious to know why the AIs are always in the lead early in the game? Or did I do something wrong? When do you usually become the lead in an SP game?

Illuminatus is offline Illuminatus
SMAC Stories Editor
Salvaging Unity Fusion Core
Jul 2003
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  Old Post 12-04-2004 23:15 Visit Illuminatus<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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Depends on the faction - as Deidre oe Morgan it can take me 100 turn, but with University it is lead from start.

Jac de Molay is offline Jac de Molay
Prince
Detroit
Sep 2001
time: 05:35
  Old Post 12-04-2004 23:15
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I play a more laid-back Thinker game, and usually Zak takes an early lead because of the free tech from Human Brain, sometimes Santaigo or Hive too. I usually start pulling away after my first few SPs, and after the first pop-boom I'm really ahead.

BustaMike is offline BustaMike
King
You think you're better than me? You've been handling my ass pennies!!!
Nov 1999
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  Old Post 12-04-2004 23:33 Visit BustaMike's homepage!
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On thinker and transcend the computer gets a 10% or 20% bonus to growth, idustry, and tech. That's why they lead at the beginning.

livid imp is offline livid imp
Prince
Gimme a quarter or I'll touch you
Mar 2004
time: 21:35
  Old Post 12-04-2004 23:52
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quote:
Originally posted by BustaMike
On thinker and transcend the computer gets a 10% or 20% bonus to growth, idustry, and tech. That's why they lead at the beginning.


And the ba$tard$ get no drones

Sure would be nice if they make a game where turning up the level turns up the AI, not just giving them more advantages.

Flubber is offline Flubber
Emperor
With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:35
  Old Post 12-04-2004 23:57
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I generally trail the Ai in the early game by most powergraph measures. In fact it is part of the strategy. The AI is nicer to you when you are in the middle of the pack. I try to time a pop-boom with acquiring a bunch of techs-- trade, then steal then cash some AAs.

Before the AI is even aware I am a threat, my empire has probably doubled in size, I have gotten a tech lead to acquire some key SPs or weapons or facilities. Suddenly the AI may hate me but they will take a few turns to do something about it and if I have timed things right I will be the first to missiles and airpower by a wide margin so there is little they can do about it

Frankychan is offline Frankychan
King
In the Kingdom of Hawaii (CPA Member)
Sep 2001
time: 19:35
  Old Post 13-04-2004 00:39 Visit Frankychan's homepage!
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Depending on the faction. Playing the Hive @ Thinker lever I usually trail only slightly until I am able to conquer another faction or make them submissive to me.

Other factions, I tend to trail far behind for almost the whole game.

On Transcend, I'm currently playing the Believers and I'm trailing a LOT! Usually with the Believers, I'll trail by a whole lot until I spam the AI with my hundreds of Laser/Impact Infantry and Probes.

I don't think I've ever been able to build no more than 2 Secret Projects as the Believers. (Thinker or Transcend levels)

Snowflake is offline Snowflake
Princess
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Apr 2003
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  Old Post 13-04-2004 00:42
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Yea that's another thing too. By the time I get IA, at least three SPs are started by the AIs. I'm sure I can get one finished before all of them using the crawlers technique, but I really don't think I can steal all the other three currently ongoing ones before they finish them.

Jamski is offline Jamski
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May 2002
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  Old Post 13-04-2004 00:59
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My current Morgan game I have every SP available built except Planetary Datalinks and total PWNage of the AI, with more votes and bases than all the other factions put together, on Transcend, on a continent with no landmarks, without building a single offensive unit in 2180. The AI are so utterly utterly PWND that I feel I want to boast about it.

For that reason I made saves every few turns

My approach is simple. I'm playing like Kody, and spending 20-30 minutes on each turn. The game has now been running for 3 days and I don't see my lead getting any less. The powergraph climbs in a curve to nearly vertically. The AI were ahead in the first few turns but that didn't last long.

Ah, the power of CASH and early FM combined with crawler abuse, an über-ultra-tight ICS and all-specialist strategy.

The AI fears me

-Jam

Snowflake is offline Snowflake
Princess
falling, once again
Apr 2003
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  Old Post 13-04-2004 01:09
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But from ICS to all specialist there is a lag. After you have more bases then the first bero limit you'll start to have more drones. And you can't have a librarian before you have 5 pops. How do you get to the top early before you have multiple bases that are larger than five?

Jamski is offline Jamski
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lol ED&D is officially full PvP LOL
May 2002
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  Old Post 13-04-2004 01:14
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Three words

RUSH BUYING STUFF.

The power of early FM is scary.

-Jam

Santiago_Claus is offline Santiago_Claus
Warlord

Mar 2004
time: 05:35
  Old Post 13-04-2004 02:09
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I always play Transcend level, Abundant lifeforms, and I usually play as Morgan.

I'm generally behind industrially until maybe 12 turns into IA.

I shoot ahead in energy reserves when I get "Green" -- sooner if I begin the game with Manifold Nexus. (It takes some time at 10% Planet rating to capture enough worms to make much money trolling fungus, but if you're lucky enough to start w/ MN you'll have a cottage planetpearl industry well before you ever go "Green".)

Technologically I will barely maintain parity using probes until EnvEco, after which the AI's terraforming skill gap leaves it hopelessly outclassed.

Militarily, Doctrine: Air Power is definitely the turning point, but some of my highest-scoring games came about as a result of early base captures and submissive pacts achieved in the "Rover Age". Every game I ever lost was also decided in that era.

I can't recall ever losing a game after D:AP, except once when I got it just as Santiago overran my last 2 bases, so I had pretty much already lost that game before D:AP came into the picture.

Since the uncertainty is pretty much gone at D:AP that would have to be the answer you're looking for, but if D:AP is a turning point, IA is an inflection point. In the Rover Age IA will save your life.

Trithemius is offline Trithemius
Prince
Canberra, Australia
May 2003
time: 14:35
  Old Post 13-04-2004 12:19
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quote:
Originally posted by livid imp
Sure would be nice if they make a game where turning up the level turns up the AI, not just giving them more advantages.


And vastly harder to program, as I understand it.
(I'm not an artificial intelligence expert, but some of my best friends are... :P).

Giving the AI an advantage is a simple way of scaling the difficulty up, without needing to employ heaps of programmers all the damn time.

Skanky Burns is offline Skanky Burns
Deity
Skanky Bastard Quartermaster
Aug 2001
time: 14:35
  Old Post 13-04-2004 16:24
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And requiring the end-user to have a Cray II supercomputer so the AI's turn only take hours to process rather than days or weeks.

Trithemius is offline Trithemius
Prince
Canberra, Australia
May 2003
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  Old Post 13-04-2004 16:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Skanky Burns
And requiring the end-user to have a Cray II supercomputer so the AI's turn only take hours to process rather than days or weeks.


It's that easy!

Skanky Burns is offline Skanky Burns
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Skanky Bastard Quartermaster
Aug 2001
time: 14:35
  Old Post 13-04-2004 16:57
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I'd love to see Soren's efforts to make an AI for SMAC though. It would be impressive - he could probably even teach the AI to exploit crawlers too.

Jamski is offline Jamski
Deity
lol ED&D is officially full PvP LOL
May 2002
time: 05:35
  Old Post 13-04-2004 17:21
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Skanky, if you like we can have a game, and I'll be the "Ai" for you...

-Jam

Skanky Burns is offline Skanky Burns
Deity
Skanky Bastard Quartermaster
Aug 2001
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  Old Post 13-04-2004 17:49
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I'll see if I can actually survive the first few turns of a Transend game, perhaps even win one against the current AI... maybe then I'll take you up on your offer.

Snowflake is offline Snowflake
Princess
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Apr 2003
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  Old Post 13-04-2004 18:40
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Don't be afraid of him. He is not unbeatable.

Skanky Burns is offline Skanky Burns
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Skanky Bastard Quartermaster
Aug 2001
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  Old Post 13-04-2004 19:03
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Even at my skill level? May I remind the jury that in my latest game I discovered hybrid forests before tree farms? That is my skill level.

Snowflake is offline Snowflake
Princess
falling, once again
Apr 2003
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  Old Post 13-04-2004 19:12
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Be unpredictable. That is the key to your victory.

RX2000 is offline RX2000
Chieftain
Tennessee
Apr 2004
time: 23:35
  Old Post 13-04-2004 20:21
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It usually depends on the map size. If the map is small, I usually beat the crap out of anyone near me as soon as I can, so I usually have a pretty good lead from the beginning. If I'm playing on a larger map, I just work on expansion and usually fall behind the AI a bit.

Jamski is offline Jamski
Deity
lol ED&D is officially full PvP LOL
May 2002
time: 05:35
  Old Post 13-04-2004 20:27
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quote:
Don't be afraid of him. He is not unbeatable


Very true. I lost to Lazerus and the Hive once.

-Jam

livid imp is offline livid imp
Prince
Gimme a quarter or I'll touch you
Mar 2004
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  Old Post 13-04-2004 23:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Trithemius
And vastly harder to program, as I understand it.
(I'm not an artificial intelligence expert, but some of my best friends are... :P).


I don't claim to be a AI expert either, but I am a programmer/aspiring game designer and have a general inclination how it is handled.
Look at how the RTS crowd handles it. They make a AI that is as close to perfectly efficient as possible then they use the difficulty slider to reduce the amount of clock cycles the AI uses in real time. This effectively makes the AI dumber, or slower. And that is handling multiple (sometimes hundreds of) instances in real time. Of course SMAC is much more complex than a typical RTS but it could be constantly be processing possible moves and counters during you turn. I would never expect the AI to ever come close to human intelligence. Such AI would be used for real life defense systems long before it would be used in a silly game. But I don't think it is asking too much for the AI not to blindly smash an endless stream of troops into a heavily fortified city just because it is the closest town.
Nothing in this world will get better without some demand for it to improve.


quote:
Originally posted by Trithemius
Giving the AI an advantage is a simple way of scaling the difficulty up,


That is a crutch to help a lame AI limp-a-long. Not a real solution.

quote:
Originally posted by Trithemius without needing to employ heaps of programmers all the damn time.


The game industry has been making more money than the movie industry for a few years now. To boot, programmers (even really good ones) don't make the kind of money that big name movie stars and directors make. The lack of money argument no longer holds water.
The new problem seems to be that (much like the movie industry) the more creative developers seem to get stuck in lower budget companies. While Blizzard can make big bucks just recycling Diablows and Warcraft 10 years later.

What Fraxis needed when developing SMAC is one of the number crunching psychos* around here to say things like "hey, the skunk works is completely pointless" and "make the AI crawl mins" back in beta.
For as great a game as SMAC is, there is still loads of room for improvement.


* I have the utmost respect for number crunching psychos, keep up the good work.

Last edited by livid imp on 14-04-2004 at 01:59

Commy is offline Commy
King
St. Louis, MO, USA
Mar 2004
time: 05:35
  Old Post 14-04-2004 01:41
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It sucks that on Transcend and thinker the AI gets benefits. And on civ, it's even worse, With the AI getting benifits on Monarch to Sid levels.

Jamski is offline Jamski
Deity
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May 2002
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  Old Post 14-04-2004 01:54
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quote:
What Praxis needed when developing SMAC is one of the number crunching psychos* around here to say things like "hey, the skunk works is completely pointless" and "make the AI crawl mins" back in beta.
For as great a game as SMAC is, there is still loads of room for improvement.


The only big failure in SMAC is that it is too good. By including so many options, they have opened it to exploits which the player can take advantage of, and at the same time hidden the optimum play choices so well that even the AI can't numbercrunch the best option out of it.

What other games are so replayable though?

* Jamski psychopathically crunches some numbers *

And to think I used to tell Kody that it was no fun to do that

-Jam

livid imp is offline livid imp
Prince
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Mar 2004
time: 21:35
  Old Post 14-04-2004 02:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamski


The only big failure in SMAC is that it is too good. By including so many options, they have opened it to exploits which the player can take advantage of, and at the same time hidden the optimum play choices so well that even the AI can't numbercrunch the best option out of it.


This is true, and I don't want to seem ungrateful. SMAC has provided me with hundreds of hours of enterainment for like 40 or 50 bucks. That is one hell of a deal .
But I don't think it should stop game designers and programmers from pushing the AI envelope. I don't ask for perfection, just improvement

Santiago_Claus is offline Santiago_Claus
Warlord

Mar 2004
time: 05:35
  Old Post 17-04-2004 04:42
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SMAC-X is too easy because of bad AI? You want really bad AI, look at the original Civ. True, Civ was much harder than SMAC-X, but only because the AI cheated so much.

I lost interest in Civ when I realized after a few games that the "race to Sufferage" was a crap shoot. SMAC-X allows a better player to do better in the game, but in Civ it was pure luck.

You could expand and terraform and spy and research and keep your citizens happy in an ancient peacetime Republic whilst struggling to explore the world in sailboats that caused unrest as soon as they left port and skip the Horseback Riding tech branch just to claw your way to industrialization that much sooner. You could micromanage to the nth degree, do EVERYTHING right, and it didn't mean sh*t. If the AI was feeling generous that day, it might just hand Sufferage to the Babylonians. One might as well devote oneself to working out a system to beat a slot machine.

No wonder the Trailer Park Chariot Rush was so popular: like a system that really would beat a slot machine, it was an exploit against a rigged game.

SMAC-X may have grown too easy to beat, but even so it's still interesting to play. That in itself represents a huge accomplishment in game AI. Rejoice, gamers: be thankful that "AI" has advanced beyond the capricious random number generator.

Sikander is offline Sikander
King
Boulder, Colorado, United Snakes of America
Jan 2000
time: 22:35
  Old Post 17-04-2004 13:37
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The reason that we don't have great AI in SMAC is that it is simply beyond the capabilities of our society and our tech at this point. A simple example would be to compare chess, a simple game that only recently and with large computing and programming resources has become a challenge for great players to beat the AI. SMAC is many orders of magnitude more complicated than chess. The board is much larger, the terrain is variable and can change as the game goes on. Instead of alternating movements of one piece, players instead can move all their pieces in the same turn, and in some cases move a piece, move another and then move the original piece again. Combat is not a known quantity, so one has to play the odds rather than simply moving somewhere and capturing a piece. Pieces can be manufactured during the game. The map is unknown at the beginning of the game and throughout the game large portions of it are unknown as far as what units may be occupying a square. The rules also change as the game moves on, as new techs are researched, SPs built etc.

So a true chess like AI isn't going to be a reality for a game like SMAC for a very long time. Instead we have scripts which are damned good for what they are, but repetitive predictable and uncreative.

Skanky Burns is offline Skanky Burns
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Skanky Bastard Quartermaster
Aug 2001
time: 14:35
  Old Post 17-04-2004 16:25
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Chess also has only 64 squares which can be occupied by only one unit. This greatly reduces the processing power needed to evaluate moves, yet still requires a supercomputer to do so. Even the smallest SMAC map has many times that number of tiles, each able to hold many units. An exponential increase in complexity, an exponential increase in the processing power needed.

 
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