13-04-2004 02:43									#1
	Hexes instead of squares Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

War is so simple in CIV series. Have you ever wondered why? Because CIV uses squares, while all wargames use hexes. I think that hexes would be the only real revolution for CIV 4. What do you think?
M

	13-04-2004 03:48									#2
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Why that might be a good idea! I'm pretty sure many will agree with you on this.

	13-04-2004 05:11									#3
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Don't be so hard on the Settler.

Here's a link to the most recent thread on the subject, Mompariglia:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=94361

	13-04-2004 18:11									#4
	Re: Hexes instead of squares Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Mompariglia War is so simple in CIV series. Have you ever wondered why? Because CIV uses squares, while all wargames use hexes. I think that hexes would be the only real revolution for CIV 4. What do you think? M

I guess that you see accessibility as a wrong thing then, Mompariglia?

	14-04-2004 07:58									#5
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I wouldn't mind seeing a change to hex fields.

	14-04-2004 11:34									#6
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First of all, I apologize for posting a new thread on this subject while there was another one already opened. However I saw that in the other thread the hexes-or-squares issue is treated as a merely graphical or aesthethical issue, but there's much more at stake here.
War is terribly simple in Civ 3 both for squares and because the max dimension of the map is still very little. Even using El Mencey's huge Earth map space is so limited that wars are just frontal clashes of units: there's no space for manuever, that's the most interesting part of war games. Does anyone know "The operational art of war"? It's the greatest war game of all times, and the developers should give it a look for the military section of the game. Most of all the concept of supply lines should be fully implemented.
M

	14-04-2004 12:59									#7
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For the record, I support hexes.

	14-04-2004 20:02									#8
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Sorry but i don't get you really Mompariglia... what is the link between hexes and "strategy space" or supply lines? I may be in lack of some concept by the way...

But i think atleast that there is in civ3 all the room needed as the units moves in stacks of infinite number of units (stronger in defense: the strongest defender take the attack when it have already been attacked)

	14-04-2004 21:04									#9
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Naokaukodem, I was suggesting to make Civ an operational-level game, this is the link. It's a bit complex to describe, as there is not a general agreement on the terms I will use.
Let's say that in war there are three levels: the strategic level (in which you exploit your resources and build your army for long-term objectives in order to be in a superior position at the operational level), the operational level (in which the army is used to prepare the best conditions for the tactical level), and the tactical level (in which you try to win single battles using the forces created at the first level and placed at the operational level). Civ is a strategic-level game. TOAW is an operational-level game, and Combat Mission is a tactical game.
Now, we all agree that Civ is a great strategy game, but it lacks a realistic simulation of war. In order to improve the realism (and the amusement) regarding war it should become "more operational". That means that the map should be hex based and much more large in order to simulate the manuevers of the armies. Supply lines is just another concept that should be added to improve realism. It's very hard to explain, but if you try to play games such "The operational art of war", "Uncommon Valour", or the upcoming "Battlefields!" you'll realize what I mean.

	15-04-2004 13:10									#10
	Full PM-box? Change here!

after playing my first war game(panzer general) i would say hexes would be better than squares. before that i was definately a pro-square guy. i wonder how many people support squares that haven't played a war game(with hexes)?

	15-04-2004 18:54									#11
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quote: War is so simple in CIV series. Have you ever wondered why?

I cannot see your point why it should get more complex using hexes. You have 8 directions with squares and 6 directions with hexes. Now whats more simple?

Anyway hexes or squares is pretty irrelevant. Its a flavor thing and the civ flavor is squares, the Panzer General flavor is hexes. Civ is strategy, Panzer General is tactic. Squares for strategy, hexes for tactic

	15-04-2004 20:08									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Hexes model movement and distance better than squares.

	15-04-2004 23:09									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Mompariglia Naokaukodem, I was suggesting to make Civ an operational-level game, this is the link. It's a bit complex to describe, as there is not a general agreement on the terms I will use. Let's say that in war there are three levels: the strategic level (in which you exploit your resources and build your army for long-term objectives in order to be in a superior position at the operational level), the operational level (in which the army is used to prepare the best conditions for the tactical level), and the tactical level (in which you try to win single battles using the forces created at the first level and placed at the operational level). Civ is a strategic-level game. TOAW is an operational-level game, and Combat Mission is a tactical game. Now, we all agree that Civ is a great strategy game, but it lacks a realistic simulation of war. In order to improve the realism (and the amusement) regarding war it should become "more operational". That means that the map should be hex based and much more large in order to simulate the manuevers of the armies. Supply lines is just another concept that should be added to improve realism. It's very hard to explain, but if you try to play games such "The operational art of war", "Uncommon Valour", or the upcoming "Battlefields!" you'll realize what I mean.

I don't think map would have to be larger... I have enough problems to maintain financially my army like that to add some more and see any trahison/war as a fatal hit and army travels very costly, timely speaking.
As for an operationnal game i think that hexes are coupled with the fact that units can't stay in the same tile what has never been implemented in any civ until now.

	16-04-2004 04:44									#14
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Hexes would be a problem because you couldn't use the numeric keypad for unit movement any more.

	16-04-2004 13:05									#15
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So? I never use the keypad anyway

Seriously, do many people do use it?

	16-04-2004 16:23									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa Civ is strategy, Panzer General is tactic. Squares for strategy, hexes for tactic

huh? i would actually think civ could play similar in battles to pg if it used hexes and modified a few things. now that'd be great...

	16-04-2004 18:35									#17
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Naokaukodem As for an operationnal game i think that hexes are coupled with the fact that units can't stay in the same tile what has never been implemented in any civ until now.

-v, please. I don't get it.

	17-04-2004 01:07									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Max Sinister -v

?

	17-04-2004 19:50									#19
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

btw i was just saying that with stacks of units civ can't be an operational game.

	17-04-2004 21:25									#20
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The term "operational" refers only to the scale of the game. Are you commandig entire armies? then you're playing at the strategic level. Are you commandig regiments? that's the operational level. Are you commanding a platoon? That's tactics. Issues like stacks of units and the keypad have nothing to do with that.

	18-04-2004 00:53									#21
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-v is commonly used as command line switch when you want to have more detailed output.

Max Sinister is obviously showing his 3x7r3m3 £337n3$$

	18-04-2004 01:36									#22
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Squares or hexes, I'm happy with both.

	18-04-2004 02:11									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

stack of units , because the place that one unit occupies in tactical / operational may be important... just like King, Queen & co places are in Chess

i was more thinking about complex tactic like in Chess to qualify any game of "tactical" or even operational, it is quite rare in civ that we have to take care about unit positions. If we come to take a strategic mountain, just take it the sooner possible, and if you want to take it back, just bring artilleries or better or numerouser units.

in tactical games like hmm.. erm... hmm .. Battle Isle units can't overlap each other, reality related stuff you know...

So i do not believe that hexes could change many things to civ war simplicity if the units movement and management stay the exact same.

By the way about to know when to send which unit where, I feel already that civ3 "manage" it pretty well, playing at Demi-God level at least.

Last edited by Naokaukodem on 18-04-2004 at 03:03