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Which option below do you prefer? (4 days)
This poll is closed.
Option 1 16 100.00%
Option 2 0 0%
Option 3 0 0%
Option 4 0 0%
Option 5 0 0%
Operation Banana: Abstain 0 0%
Total: 16 voters 100%
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Trip is offline Trip
Firaxis Games
Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:35
  Old Post 13-04-2004 05:35 Visit Trip's homepage!
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#1 Report this post to a moderator
Location of CGN's Exile Increase Your PM Length

Where should we grant land to CGN for them to survive until we're able to retake their land and move them back?

Please vote without taking other considerations into effect (CGN hiding a Settler somewhere, or CFC granting them land), as we can worry about those things later on to achieve the optimal resettlement plan for CGN.

This poll is merely to determine where Apolyton wants to place them using geography as the only concern.

  • Option 1: On the plains and hills to the north.

    Pros:

    - We are building 3 cities up there now, which won't be very productive, due to both being somewhat far away from our FP and because, well, the land pretty much sucks. However, CGN should be able to drain a fair amount of SPT out of the rock with mined hills and the game tile up there will be able to produce a fair amount of food.

    - Their cities would be on the coast, able to produce Galleys for an invasion of the other continent, as well as their own settling of any possible islands to the north/northwest of us.

    - 3 cities is better than any other alternative, and will seem to CGN like they have more of an existence in this game than a single crappy city somewhere.

    Cons:

    - The security isn't all that great, as all three cities would be on the coast.

    - No irrigation until Electricity.

  • Option 2: On the desert in the center of our empire.

    Pros:

    - Very secure location, there's no way GWT-GCA could get them without coming through us.

    - Being on the coast it can produce ships for the invasion, but only by gifting one of the chokepoints to them (probably to CFC, to avoid losing our cultural improvements...)

    Cons:

    - This site is probably the least productive area on our entire continent.

    - It almost splits our empire in half, meaning we will have to rely solely on Eisten Boulen for north-south access. This is a security risk should CGN decide to cross us (this being extremely unlikely, however). Even with no double-cross though, a GWT-GCA invasion could use this to their advantage (capturing Eisten Boulen for themselves).

    - No possibility of multiple cities, as giving away more than one in this area would certainly harm our production more than it's worth.

    - If there's any way of telling CGN "you suck and we only want you for your techs and Workers" this city is the way to do it.

  • Option 3: A city along the northern coast of our inner lake.

    Pros:

    - A single city here would be quite productive with irrigation and hills added together. They ought to be able to get 10 SPT in this city, and with a Harbor use the water tiles for plenty of commerce.

    - On the coast like the previous site, though it will require the gifting of a chokepoint to get the boats out of the lake.

    Cons:

    - This takes away a rather productive location from us which we will need to help produce boats and such for the invasion.

    - No possibility of multiple cities, as giving away more than one in this area would certainly harm our production more than it's worth.

    - A city like Del Monte would conflict with our border with CFC, leading to the same issues as with the previous site regarding double-cross possibilities or other strategic problems with a GWT-GCA invasion.

  • Option 4: Another Site: Please suggest in a post what you would prefer to the three options listed above.

  • Option 5: No sites - Let 'em burn.
Please vote for whichever option you prefer.

Note that the abstain vote is only for information-gathering purposes and bears no effect on the results of the poll otherwise.

Trip is offline Trip
Firaxis Games
Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:35
  Old Post 13-04-2004 05:44 Visit Trip's homepage!
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I voted for Option 1 because, frankly, I'm not too concerned about CGN's security. If a GWT invasion is coming they'll be more concerned with landing a hammerblow on us than trying to get rid of a 3-city civ that has very little productive or military capability.

dejon is offline dejon
King

Sep 2002
time: 00:35
  Old Post 13-04-2004 05:50
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quote:
Originally posted by dejon
Pardon me if this is a dumb question, but why don't we negotiate with CFC and CGN to get CGN some of the CFC unsettled land?


I would like to get an answer to this question in the other thread before I vote.

BigFree is offline BigFree

Emperor
Acampo, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:35
  Old Post 13-04-2004 06:04
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I'd like to give them the land to or North; Option 1, if they/we can have enough units intersperesed there to prevent GWT/GCA landing there. Though i'm a little uneasy about the protection we/they can afford to have there now.

What about the combo of "Equlibrium" and "Del Monte"? One of our cities and one of CFC's. We can settle another city close to "Del Monte" and force CGN to keep "Del Monte" small.

If at all possible I'd rather we get CFC to give them that island they have. Though, that would be asking a lot of CFC.

But, if we "need" to protect them we can build a city at 1-1-2 of "Elucidium Novum" and let them have that one lone city.

I guess that's quite a few suggestions. What option do I vote for?

Trip is offline Trip
Firaxis Games
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Apr 2002
time: 00:35
  Old Post 13-04-2004 06:13 Visit Trip's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by BigFree
I'd like to give them the land to or North; Option 1, if they/we can have enough units intersperesed there to prevent GWT/GCA landing there. Though i'm a little uneasy about the protection we/they can afford to have there now.

I think this is a moot point really... I'm more concerned about GWT getting a foothold in our lands (wherever they may be) than them getting one next to CGN. If we are unable to prevent a landing on our own soil, why worry about CGN being up there at all?

quote:
What about the combo of "Equlibrium" and "Del Monte"? One of our cities and one of CFC's. We can settle another city close to "Del Monte" and force CGN to keep "Del Monte" small.

I don't think CFC will go for this... they wanted Equilibrium so they could build a navy in the lake and be able to sail it out. Giving it to CGN permanently probably wouldn't make them too happy.

quote:
If at all possible I'd rather we get CFC to give them that island they have. Though, that would be asking a lot of CFC.

Yes, I agree. But that island is rather close to CFC's capital... it would have the same corruption as Elucidium does for us.

quote:
But, if we "need" to protect them we can build a city at 1-1-2 of "Elucidium Novum" and let them have that one lone city.

Like I said in my post above and this one, I think we have bigger things to worry about than CGN's security if GWT invades and manages to get a foothold.

E_T is offline E_T
Emperor
Orlando, Florida
Mar 2001
time: 00:35
  Old Post 13-04-2004 06:17
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Option #1 all of the way.

E_T

BigFree is offline BigFree

Emperor
Acampo, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:35
  Old Post 13-04-2004 09:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Trip

I think this is a moot point really... I'm more concerned about GWT getting a foothold in our lands (wherever they may be) than them getting one next to CGN. If we are unable to prevent a landing on our own soil, why worry about CGN being up there at all?


Not really, since GWT might just be satified with knocking off CGN so that they won't be our "partner" in the future. I could see GWT just landing a small party to take out the remains of CGN.


quote:

I don't think CFC will go for this... they wanted Equilibrium so they could build a navy in the lake and be able to sail it out. Giving it to CGN permanently probably wouldn't make them too happy.


I don't think they would go for it either; but it doesn't hurt to ask....

quote:

Yes, I agree. But that island is rather close to CFC's capital... it would have the same corruption as Elucidium does for us.


Same a above.

quote:

Like I said in my post above and this one, I think we have bigger things to worry about than CGN's security if GWT invades and manages to get a foothold.


Exactly, which is why if we have enough units to prevent a landing against CGN then we may be safe for a long while. It's a much different ball game for GWT to make a landing against CGN than it would be to do a direct landing/assault on us. CGN would not be able to repel them, where as GWT will think we would be well with our capabilities to do so.

Giving GWT no chance at taking out CGN, without going through us, is our safest bet.

Trip is offline Trip
Firaxis Games
Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:35
  Old Post 13-04-2004 09:51 Visit Trip's homepage!
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Well, again, I think CGN being up north is a moot point to debate. They're either up there (with us having to defend them with our units) or they're somewhere else, with us having to defend that area of land anyways. In both cases we have to have our army capable of fending off an invasion up there.

roadcage is offline roadcage
Prince
Minneapolis Kansas
Nov 2001
time: 23:35
  Old Post 13-04-2004 23:15
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to paraphrase...

There are three things to consider in Civ
Efficiency, Efficiency, Efficiency

We micromanage to get that least little bit of advantage per turn, and then allow the advantages to grow over turns via a process not unlike compound interest.

In this case we more or less must plan on the assumption that CGN (and CFC) remain loyal and trusting participants in our glorious struggle to purge the great western continent of the forces of evil.

So the question should be which option maximizes the aggregate production of shields and gold in support of operation Invictus.

The northwest lands (option 1) will be better for net production with CGN ownership than our own due to corruption. I say let CGN make a few boats and units in the northwest.

A vote for Option 1 is a vote to ride to Ruhrport and Webringen. And ride we must to fulfill our destiny.

Paddy the Scot is offline Paddy the Scot

Prince
Hordeland
Mar 2001
time: 14:35
  Old Post 13-04-2004 23:31 Visit Paddy the Scot<br><a href=/members><img src=/forums/images/inmate-icon.gif border=0></a><BR>'s homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by E_T
Option #1 all of the way.

E_T


indeed

Aidun is offline Aidun
King
The Hague, the capital of the civilized world
Nov 2002
time: 06:35
  Old Post 14-04-2004 00:25
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The economic pleads have convinced me that economic benefit has priority over strategic placement. And the risk of being split in two parts has convinced me that the strategic placement in option 2 is has a big negative point.

So I have changed my opinion in favor of option 1 and have voted for option 1.

Aidun

joncnunn is offline joncnunn
Emperor
Maryland Heights, MO
Sep 2002
time: 23:35
  Old Post 14-04-2004 23:47 Visit joncnunn's homepage!
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#2 also has a distinct disadvantage of potientally giving away the only source of Oil.

#1 appears to be the best option to me, and that's what I'm voting for.

Trip is offline Trip
Firaxis Games
Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:35
  Old Post 15-04-2004 00:15 Visit Trip's homepage!
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Since it's clear where people would prefer to have CGN, we shoul talk with CFC soon to see if they're willing to give up any land (the northern jungle or their island).

conmcb25 is offline conmcb25

Emperor
Angmar
Aug 2002
time: 23:35
  Old Post 21-04-2004 22:18 Visit conmcb25<br><a href=/members><img src=/forums/images/inmate-icon.gif border=0></a><BR>'s homepage!
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Well
It looks like I can consider this pretty much a done deal.

I will let CGN know about it.

~con~

conmcb25 is offline conmcb25

Emperor
Angmar
Aug 2002
time: 23:35
  Old Post 23-04-2004 19:14 Visit conmcb25<br><a href=/members><img src=/forums/images/inmate-icon.gif border=0></a><BR>'s homepage!
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Well I haven't seen any more comments on this so Im going to post a screen shot to the CGN forum.

Trip is offline Trip
Firaxis Games
Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:35
  Old Post 25-04-2004 12:25 Visit Trip's homepage!
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Sounds good Con.

I recall miccofl asking about refuge in passing, mentioning that with only 1 city it would be hardly worth it for them to exist. When I told him about this plan, he said "that's something we can work with."

So it seems CGN will be cooperative with this resolution.

E_T is offline E_T
Emperor
Orlando, Florida
Mar 2001
time: 00:35
  Old Post 25-04-2004 13:55
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Here is how I think that we should work this:

580 AD - site #10 built
600 AD - site #9 & Rememberance are built.

Because we don;t know when these cities will be gifted to CGN, here's how we should work it.

- Each of them will be set to providing wealth
- starting in 600 AD, we offer CGN Rememberance, accepted. This City ONLY at that time, on each turn.
- On each turn, CGN does NOT accept Rememberance, UNLESS they feel that they won't last to the next turn. This way, it gives them the option to take it or not AND it allows us to use the cities for our economy (corrupt as they will be).
- After they have been completely eliminated from the other contenent, their Palace will move to Rememberance. We then gift them the other 2 cities and they accept them.

Now, we Might get 1 build, like a cat out of site #10, and possibly out of 9, but I really doubt that they will be around long enough for us to get something built out of Rememberance. So, it would likely be safer just to have them doing wealth, to help our GPT.

On thing I would like to possibly have them do, after the war is over and before they give them back to us, is to have built Courthouses in them. I know, for their Palace to move, they will either have to abandon Rememberance OR get a GL from the war.

One thing that they DON:T need to build, is Culture Items. They only need to build Barracks, Harbors & Units

E_T

conmcb25 is offline conmcb25

Emperor
Angmar
Aug 2002
time: 23:35
  Old Post 26-04-2004 01:35 Visit conmcb25<br><a href=/members><img src=/forums/images/inmate-icon.gif border=0></a><BR>'s homepage!
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They dont want gifted cities.

They want to slug over with settlers.


Let me talk to miccofl about this again but dont build them any cities for right now.

Hot_Enamel is offline Hot_Enamel
Emperor
Melbourne, Australia
Aug 2002
time: 14:35
  Old Post 26-04-2004 03:43
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We can always build the cities, and then "sell" them to CGN.

Payment could be their settler. They settle a city elsewhere, and then gift it to us. Or they let us attack it and create 2 slaves.

Preferably, they settle elsewhere and then we swap cities.

conmcb25 is offline conmcb25

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Angmar
Aug 2002
time: 23:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Hot_Enamel
We can always build the cities, and then "sell" them to CGN.

Payment could be their settler. They settle a city elsewhere, and then gift it to us. Or they let us attack it and create 2 slaves.

Preferably, they settle elsewhere and then we swap cities.


THEY DONT WANT TO DO THIS.

They want to slug it out bringing settlers on galleys.

I appreciate the ideas but they are pretty set on this. I have discussed it with miccofl numerous times.

Im going to check again tonight but dont plan on gifting the initial cities to CGN.

We are dealing with a team that still has a lot of pride and "wants to do this the right way".

And the team that suffered the most from the GCA unit warp, and the team that thought it was a cheat the most.

So please lets stop going here, they dont want the easy way they want there way on this.

*con goes to check the save game thread to make sure we didn't build them any cities, because he doubts the consels or E_T have seen this in a while*

Arnelos is offline Arnelos
Emperor
of the Free World
Sep 2002
time: 00:35
  Old Post 26-04-2004 05:31
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con... it's going to be a VERY long time before CGN can claim that land, even if they make it that far. There is little harm in us settling the land in the meantime. If they truly wish to insist upon settling it themselves, we can always abandon one of the cities and let them resettle and pile all of their pop points (those that survive) into the new city or others that we gift them once they make it.

The point is that it's going to be a VERY long time until they get all the way up there. We might as well build the place up and improve the land in the meantime, if we can.

Hot_Enamel is offline Hot_Enamel
Emperor
Melbourne, Australia
Aug 2002
time: 14:35
  Old Post 26-04-2004 06:05
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quote:
Originally posted by conmcb25


THEY DONT WANT TO DO THIS.

They want to slug it out bringing settlers on galleys.

I appreciate the ideas but they are pretty set on this. I have discussed it with miccofl numerous times.

Im going to check again tonight but dont plan on gifting the initial cities to CGN.

We are dealing with a team that still has a lot of pride and "wants to do this the right way".

And the team that suffered the most from the GCA unit warp, and the team that thought it was a cheat the most.

So please lets stop going here, they dont want the easy way they want there way on this.

*con goes to check the save game thread to make sure we didn't build them any cities, because he doubts the consels or E_T have seen this in a while*


For a team that agreed to gift us a city to help us in our War Weariness threat against GWT...
For a team that agreed to gift us a city to help us sell/warp slaves to our continent....
Then its a little rich to take the moral high road now and refuse to purchase cities from us. Especially when the terms are quite fair.
And for a team that owes us a lot of gold. A debt they will never repay, then its also disrespectful to say that they wont purchase a city off us for a fair price.

We sell them a city for the price of 1 settler.

ie.. their settlers still have to slog it over here. They just have to build cities at a different location, and then gifted to us.



And BTW, we gave them a lot of gold to put up a fight against GWT. What the hell are they doing building bulk settlers & galleys ?

conmcb25 is offline conmcb25

Emperor
Angmar
Aug 2002
time: 23:35
  Old Post 26-04-2004 06:19 Visit conmcb25<br><a href=/members><img src=/forums/images/inmate-icon.gif border=0></a><BR>'s homepage!
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I am currently in chat with miccofl on this issue.

They are now rethinking the gifting them cities issue.

Ill post on this later.

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