14-04-2004 08:18									#91
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Pax Africanus 4. Lastly, Free Press is a cornerstone of democracy! It the same thing that allows people on this site to speak out. Just because we don't like the message does not give the right to shut it down.

I agree Free Press is very important. However it can cause problems if a person twists it for malicious use. Such as calling out FIRE in the public theater, delibarately causing harm or injury as people stampede or push each other off while trying to escape the non-existent fire in the theater.

Also, I think the Media ruin politics, because the candidates have to brown nose, kiss up, and make love to the Media to have even the slighest chance of winning.

Sad, really.

I think Media should be forbidden to interfere with politics. Media should only be allowed to tape debates, and show ad's for campaigns. Nothing else.

Hell, I bet Adolf Hitler would have a field day with today's Media. He used the Media to convince people he was right during the 1920's and 1930's before becoming the Fuhrer of Germany.

	14-04-2004 08:41									#92
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Oh Yeah,
If the other democratic leaders were to scared to run against bush I say F'em and I give Kerry extra credit for getting in the ring.

	14-04-2004 09:38									#93
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Media should only be allowed to tape debates, and show ad's for campaigns. Nothing else.

How is this consistent with the idea of a free press?

	14-04-2004 09:41									#94
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: run to a crowded theater and shout fire please. Free speech protects you from being prevented from saying something, it makes no provision for what happens after you say it. This guy has incited violence and had lies printed, neither of which is protected last time I checked.

I want you to prove to me that the Sadrist newspaper caused violence (as yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre would). Cause you can't. What caused violence was the suppression of the newspaper by coalition authorities. Actions such as those ought to be prohibited.

As for being protected, of course it's not protected. They do not have recourse to the US Constitution or US Courts. What we say is law, period.

	14-04-2004 09:45									#95
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Had you stated that he was a terrorist because he killed American soldiers using combatants disguised as civilians, that would have been sufficient justification.

That's a war crime. Not a terrorist act.

re the contravesy regarding the question of Hezbollah being a terrorist group or not:

quote: Is Hezbollah a terrorist group? Yes. Hezbollah and its affiliates have planned or been linked to a lengthy series of terrorist attacks against America, Israel, and other Western targets. These attacks include: a series of kidnappings of Westerners, including several Americans, in the 1980s; the suicide truck bombings that killed more than 200 U.S. Marines at their barracks in Beirut, Lebanon, in 1983; the 1985 hijacking of TWA flight 847, which featured the famous footage of the plane's pilot leaning out of the cockpit with a gun to his head; and two major 1990s attacks on Jewish targets in Argentina—the 1992 bombing of the Israeli embassy (killing 29) and the 1994 bombing of a Jewish community center (killing 95).

	14-04-2004 09:49									#96
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Tho' the attack on the US marines doesn't count as terrorism.

	14-04-2004 09:50									#97
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

How about the attacks on targets in Argentina, etc., pedant?

	14-04-2004 09:53									#98
	Support Apolyton

I didn't say that Hezbollah wasn't involved in terrorism.

	14-04-2004 09:55									#99
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I know. That's for Imran and Tripledoc.

	14-04-2004 09:56									#100
	Increase Your PM Length

Wow... a group of Hezbollah committed a terrorist act 10 years ago and nothing since. It's like saying Libya is still a terrorist state, even though the last act of terrorism it did was in the 80s.

	14-04-2004 10:01									#101
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Wow... a group of Hezbollah committed a terrorist act 10 years ago and nothing since.

I'm sure our Israeli friends can give more recent info. It only took 30 seconds worth of Googling to rebut the contention that they weren't a terrorist group though.

	14-04-2004 10:08									#102
	Full PM-box? Change here!

10 ago was the last 'terrorist' act. Doesn't rebut a damned thing, especially since Hezbollah has mostly been involved in attacks against Israeli soldiers (as any of the Israelis can tell you). Makes me wonder if this wasn't some splinter group.

	14-04-2004 10:10									#103
	A full minute Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui 10 ago was the last 'terrorist' act. Doesn't rebut a damned thing.

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/WinnipegSun/News/2004/04/12/417702.html

	14-04-2004 10:13									#104
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

So you think Sadr's newspaper was a terrorist organization? As the article says:

"Hezbollah does not seem to be issuing specific instructions about targets or timing."

What is the evidence they are initiating attacks against civilians and not helping out in attacks against border guards or military (seeing that is what they do)?

	14-04-2004 10:16									#105
	I love selective quoting. It makes it easy for people to miss the point. Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui So you think Sadr's newspaper was a terrorist organization? As the article says:

Al Aqsa members in the West Bank city of Nablus say they speak with their Hezbollah handlers by telephone almost daily. Israeli security officials say Hezbollah trains some Palestinian militants abroad, instructing them in weapons and bomb-making.

	14-04-2004 10:18									#106
	For the Hard of Reading Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

And let me requote myself:

quote: What is the evidence they are initiating attacks against civilians and not helping out in attacks against border guards or military (seeing that is what they do)?

Let's put it this way. It seems strange that a group which has basically been involved in attacks against military forces suddenly decides that we should go after civilians as well, when it has rarely done so in the past.

	14-04-2004 10:47									#107
	Increase Your PM Length

Imran and DD -- when is the honeymoon?

	14-04-2004 12:49									#108
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Media should only be allowed to tape debates, and show ad's for campaigns. Nothing else. How is this consistent with the idea of a free press?

I'm all for freedom of press. People should be able to voice their opinions about politics, candidates, etc.

BUT media influences politics and causes far more harm than the good it does.

The Media must cease and desist in directly influencing politics. I bet Ted Turner or Donald Trump would have an easy time making themselves good candidates.

Why?

They own lots of media. They'll use their media to paint a false picture of themselves, creating a false impression. Then people would be fooled, and vote for the wrong person.


If a normal income person who is a truly good leader with all the right talents and skills competed aganist a millionaire like Bush, Clinton, Donald Trump, Kerry, etc. who will win?

The millionaires. Simply because they control the media.


The freedom of speech is an illusion with the media. The only true freedom of speech is between people chatting, or debates on the internet.

	14-04-2004 13:25									#109
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The point of the media is not and has never been to be fair and balanced. It has two functions:

1) To provide certain facts (eg. "Pneumonic plague has broken out in Surat").

2) To promote specific interpretations of those facts, whether they belong to the government or to the media outlet (eg. "Malaysia is America's partner in the war on Islamic terrorism").

That's the way it's been since they had town criers, and I don't see it changing now. Sometimes you can bend it or use it to promote your own point of view.

* Mr. President points to his pile of around ten Time magazines bearing letters written by him

	14-04-2004 15:03									#110
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Al Aqsa members in the West Bank city of Nablus say they speak with their Hezbollah handlers by telephone almost daily.

Whaaaa? Al Aqsa is a wing of Fatah, not Hizbollah.

	14-04-2004 16:48									#111
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Hezbollah is not a terrorist group. It is a non-state militia that has committed war crimes and attrocities. They don't hide, they don't pretend to be civilians.

I see - they sat in the "non-Civilian third class" section when they hijacked planes and wore "I work for Hezbollah" when they planted a bomb in a Jewish center in Argentina, did they?

	14-04-2004 16:50									#112
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

But that was 10 years ago! They're all cuddly now!

	14-04-2004 17:34									#113
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: BUT media influences politics and causes far more harm than the good it does.

You can't cry for free press and then say a free press does more harm than good.

quote: The freedom of speech is an illusion with the media. The only true freedom of speech is between people chatting, or debates on the internet.

... says a person who has no idea what freedom of speech really is.

	14-04-2004 17:38									#114
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

How does that saying go, "Freedom of press is limited to those who own one."?

	14-04-2004 18:33									#115
	Suffering from ads?

Can a terrorist stop being a terrorist? Accordiong to Bush, yes-Lybia gave up terrorism.

So the question is, when does a gorup and or organization stop being "terrorist"? Must it renounce violence to achieve aims? Or simply renounce acts that can be classified as terrorism thought still advocate violence?

I think the first, denounce terrorist tactics, but does not have to renounce violence. After all, an arrmy is simply an object to have around if you need to use violence to further your aims.

	15-04-2004 00:44									#116
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Just want to point out that when you won't listen to someone, when you silence their voice, all they have left is violence.

Terrorists are created when peoples needs are persistently ignored.

Were the Sadrists perpetrating violence before his newspaper was undemocraticallly and totally censored?