14-04-2004 17:00									#61
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Where in this thread do I accuse him of that?

Anyway - how about his confirmation to the CyCon that the Hive had made a map of Planet by sticking together infilteration pictures. That in itself is a step too far.

-Jam

	14-04-2004 17:16									#62
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Jamski you are not the first one trying to get the temple(s) closed

I second jamski in every word he has said on this thread....yes those words too

	14-04-2004 17:24									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Where in this thread do I accuse him of that? Anyway - how about his confirmation to the CyCon that the Hive had made a map of Planet by sticking together infilteration pictures. That in itself is a step too far. -Jam

! What would be wrong with this...?

	14-04-2004 18:58									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Pardon me. I tend to try to make light of situations sometimes. No, worshipping is simply another spam-staple. You aren't forced to do it - Notice that I've stayed pretty far away from the PEACE forums?

Because arguements often seem to ensue? I'm not following...

quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar If CyCon ever tell me to stop spamming their forum...I'll do it. As you've noticed, with the exception of that...tete-a-tete, PEACE is completly free of my presence. There have been some...faction leaders of certain factions who have played the game differently than others.

That's because you've always gotten pounced on though... I would too in that kind of a situation.

quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Because, I'm trying to tell people(without crossing the line between telling them and exposing faction information) that not everybody has played this game fair and nice, and that I know about these things and others don't and so they should simply trust my judgment. An ill-fated attempt at influence other peoples decision making.

You are in a unique situation here... but then so is everybody else, Tass. Your very personality from my oberservations pins you as somebody who doesn't hold much sacred, if anything, and enjoys finding... a humorous side to almost every situation. That kind of humor isn't always appreciated. Googlie, when he posted often in the ACDG always had constructive things to say. Random comments like 'I burn the Data Angels flag' or whatever it was certainly isn't going to garner you much support... but then at the same time you don't seem to care if you have support or not... which again makes it so you don't garner much.

quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Well... But I allowed the defection anyway because its so late in game.

I thought you allowed it because that's how the voting ended up...

quote: Originally posted by Jamski Where in this thread do I accuse him of that? Anyway - how about his confirmation to the CyCon that the Hive had made a map of Planet by sticking together infilteration pictures. That in itself is a step too far. -Jam

Eh? How is this a bad thing? I find it very resourceful.

	14-04-2004 19:01									#65
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I think he's objecting to Tass telling us, not to the Hive doing it.

	14-04-2004 19:08									#66
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus I think he's objecting to Tass telling us, not to the Hive doing it.

Ah... yes, wouldn't that be on the end of the in-game info being passed around?

	14-04-2004 19:30									#67
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I agree with obstrutor that I don't see anything constructive in this thread.

I see three points being accused of tass.

One, he creats temples for people to worship him.
If one doesn't like worship, tass has not forced anybody to worship him. You don't like a temple, you don't go there. If nobody goes there, then the thread drops and there is no need to close it. The PEACE do not like spamfest with tass, the end result is that tass do not appear much in their forum. In the Hive we never have any problem with this. Tass opens a thread, some people post once in it, others don't, and it drops naturally. And from what I read in this thread, CC's temple was dropping until Jamski showed up.

Second, tass passes sensitive information. The only example I see is that he confirmed that Hive has made a planet map from infiltration information. What's the secrecy in that? If Hive infiltrated everything they could of course make a map out of that, anybody has a little brain would be able to figure that out without anybody telling you this. If this is where the accusation comes from, I really doubt what your brain is made up.

Third, tass has made in game decisions without vote. I have not seen any example regarding this accusation. If a faction feels that an unfair decision was made against it, it should raise objection when it happens, not casting wild accusations randomly. If it turns out that such occassions occur often, I'm sure most players will support a discussion about replacing tass who always make unfair in game decisions. However I have not seen this happening.

If it is about unstylish spam, admit it, we all spam to a certain degree. One has the right to attack somebody for unstylished spam, but one also has the right to post however he wants, and bear the associated risk. This has nothing to do with whether tass is doing a good job as a CMN.

I understand in addition to the need to increase some people's postcounts, there are also personal likes and dislikes involved. But please try to be objective and fair when you cast your accusations.

	14-04-2004 19:36									#68
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quote: Random comments like 'I burn the Data Angels flag' or whatever it was certainly isn't going to garner you much support

Ah come on.... He's just expressing his disagreement with the fact that more people voted for a multi-faction game than a single faction one. Isn't it enough that you guys won that one?

	14-04-2004 19:41									#69
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You missed the big point again.

Tass is claiming Godlike authority over our ACDG. Why is this? When did we all get together and say "Tass is our leader! Let him make desisions! Let him moderate our Private Forums!" Googlie perhaps has some authority, as he created and set up the game, but why is Tass acting like he's in charge of the ACDG?

THAT, ladies and gentlemen is the point. If we had elected Tass as out god, then I would have no objections to his behavior. The whole question of information passing or styleless spam is only a side issue. The main question is : Does the mod serve the game, or does the game serve the mod? I really feel that in a democracy game, the democratic players of that game have the right to decide these things.

I also think this is the perfect moment to make these points. Too late for the changes to disrupt the current game, but in plenty of time for the people to discuss and debate the arrangements for the next game, and the role and position of any future mods/gods/CMNs, and how they should be defined.

Or is it usual in a game of football that the referee gives himself a free kick?

-Jam

	14-04-2004 19:47									#70
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quote: Originally by HongHu Third, tass has made in game decisions without vote. I have not seen any example regarding this accusation. If a faction feels that an unfair decision was made against it, it should raise objection when it happens, not casting wild accusations randomly. If it turns out that such occassions occur often, I'm sure most players will support a discussion about replacing tass who always make unfair in game decisions. However I have not seen this happening.

Two occasions he's ruled against PEACE. Both times there was no easy way to bring it to a vote so Tass knew he had the advantage.

Once proper wording of a poll was finally created that all, including Tass, thought was unbiased, it was moot because we'd been forced to play through.

That's about my only beef with this system, there is no easy way for the game group as a whole to make rulings because that would reveal too much about each team.

Now, if we didn't worry about that as much (and played a more friendly game) it would have been easier.

I know quite a few PBEMs that some bug has cropped up, everybody is told about the full situation, and a decision is made... but maybe the CtP crowd is just nicer than the AC one

quote: Ah come on.... He's just expressing his disagreement with the fact that more people voted for a multi-faction game than a single faction one. Isn't it enough that you guys won that one?

Considering his position though, there are ways of doing it that doesn't seem as though he's simply baiting... similar to the much kinder way you just said it?

	14-04-2004 19:49									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Or is it usual in a game of football that the referee gives himself a free kick? -Jam

Depends on the type of kick and the location that the referree kicks himself in I suppose... though I must say that the referee is very talented as long as it's not a kick to the rear.

	14-04-2004 19:50									#72
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quote: Two occasions he's ruled against PEACE. Both times there was no easy way to bring it to a vote so Tass knew he had the advantage. Once proper wording of a poll was finally created that all, including Tass, thought was unbiased, it was moot because we'd been forced to play through. That's about my only beef with this system, there is no easy way for the game group as a whole to make rulings because that would reveal too much about each team.

A good point - let it be said, I'm not against the idea of a CMN per se, but I think anyone in this reponsible position should be chosen in a fair and democratic manner before the game, or be someone who's neutrality is not in doubt - i.e. the person who created the scenario originally MUST be trusted to be impartial, and have a track record as such (Googlie, Darsnan etc)

-Jam

	14-04-2004 19:55									#73
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So much more is being defined all the time... I really doubt we'll have as much trouble in the next game as we did in this one.

We know that most PBEM unmentioned rules are out the window due to not everybody being aware of them and we know that there are individuals who are playing to win as opposed to playing to have fun and roleplay.

As long as we encourage more have fun and roleplay, and can get a CMN to encourage that in the private forums who can also quickly figure out wordings of polls for situations that doesn't reveal anything the team doesn't want to reveal we're good to go, IMHO.

What we didn't realize at the start of this was how much the CMN may still be needed after the creation, which is what hit Googlie and all of us so hard in the first place.

Like the PK constitution we just need some kind of CMN guidelines for next game to help the CMN know what the players want without forcing the CMN to reveal game-important material when it woudl be detrimental.

	14-04-2004 19:57									#74
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quote: [SIZE=1] Originally posted by FlameFlash Considering his position though, there are ways of doing it that doesn't seem as though he's simply baiting... similar to the much kinder way you just said it?

Trust me, I'm considerably annoyed that I will be out of the game and moreover it seeming that no-one listens to our POV, just dismisses it as negative, and it takes a lot to hold back like that.

I think all this is rather silly actually - maybe before the game got to this point, but with FAR more activity aimed at designing the next game than finishing the old, can we just let the thing end quietly first? It's not going to take long by the looks of it all.

	14-04-2004 19:57									#75
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Agreed And we need an impartial CMN as well that is respected by all factions.

-Jam

	14-04-2004 19:59									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski You missed the big point again. Tass is claiming Godlike authority over our ACDG. Why is this? When did we all get together and say "Tass is our leader! Let him make desisions! Let him moderate our Private Forums!" Googlie perhaps has some authority, as he created and set up the game, but why is Tass acting like he's in charge of the ACDG?

We had a poll, dear Jamski, that gives tass the permission to assist Googlie to make in game decisions. And different teams made their own decisions on whether they allow tass in their forum. And it happens that Hive and CCs are two teams that allowed him in. I know you are forgetful, that's ok. Hope you remember this now.

quote: THAT, ladies and gentlemen is the point. If we had elected Tass as out god, then I would have no objections to his behavior. The whole question of information passing or styleless spam is only a side issue. The main question is : Does the mod serve the game, or does the game serve the mod? I really feel that in a democracy game, the democratic players of that game have the right to decide these things.

IIRC nobody has ever claimed that the game serves the mod. The only question is, are you now claiming that the ACDG game has been serving tass? If yes oh sure I would support your effort to overthrow him, and long ago too. Pity I do not think anybody will say that our game has been serving tass.

quote: I also think this is the perfect moment to make these points. Too late for the changes to disrupt the current game, but in plenty of time for the people to discuss and debate the arrangements for the next game, and the role and position of any future mods/gods/CMNs, and how they should be defined.

Make an adequate discussion thread then, and quit your personal attacks toward one single person.

quote: Or is it usual in a game of football that the referee gives himself a free kick? -Jam

Is it usual in a game of football that certain players can gang up and beat up the referee and claims that they are right and their actions should be followed by all?

	14-04-2004 20:01									#77
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What, and not be able to go right from one game to another?

I'm fine with that, but then Jam wouldn't get all the posts he was hoping for...

MWIA, it's not that we're ignoring you, per se, it's just that it's only you and Tass that seem to be making arguements against a multi-team DG.

It's difficult being a lonely voice, but how else are we supposed to do it? Even given the problems that have happened, Tass has still done the job to the best of his abilities (and fairly well given he hasn't had any guidelines) people want to play another team DG... I can understand your annoyance, but how can the group as a whole really help without going against what the majority wants?

	14-04-2004 20:01									#78
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quote: Originally posted by FlameFlash So much more is being defined all the time... I really doubt we'll have as much trouble in the next game as we did in this one. We know that most PBEM unmentioned rules are out the window due to not everybody being aware of them and we know that there are individuals who are playing to win as opposed to playing to have fun and roleplay. As long as we encourage more have fun and roleplay, and can get a CMN to encourage that in the private forums who can also quickly figure out wordings of polls for situations that doesn't reveal anything the team doesn't want to reveal we're good to go, IMHO. What we didn't realize at the start of this was how much the CMN may still be needed after the creation, which is what hit Googlie and all of us so hard in the first place. Like the PK constitution we just need some kind of CMN guidelines for next game to help the CMN know what the players want without forcing the CMN to reveal game-important material when it woudl be detrimental.

I agree with every word you said, FlameFlash. I hope we can all discuss things with this kind of attitude.

	14-04-2004 20:04									#79
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HongHu, some fine arguments, but the poll results speak more clearly than any point-by-point rebuttal. Shall we agree that we disagree, but allow the democratic process to be completed. Thankyou for your interesting opinions.

-Jam

	14-04-2004 20:08									#80
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quote: Originally posted by FlameFlash MWIA, it's not that we're ignoring you, per se, it's just that it's only you and Tass that seem to be making arguements against a multi-team DG. It's difficult being a lonely voice, but how else are we supposed to do it? Even given the problems that have happened, Tass has still done the job to the best of his abilities (and fairly well given he hasn't had any guidelines) people want to play another team DG... I can understand your annoyance, but how can the group as a whole really help without going against what the majority wants?

Yes I do understand that (it is a post I have seen before, more or less). At the risk of staying off topic I have to stress that there's a difference between being felt to have been listened to and still disagreed with for some reasons (maybe after some fun debate), and it seeming like one's posts were ignored totally. That is what it got to before any poll on the issue was started. Everyone was getting so carried away in their different ideas that there was little debate I saw on the whyfors or whynots for a single faction game - and I still have seen no reason why we can't revive the ACPSG as well, at the very least, yet that lies forgotten as well.

And if Tass and I are lonely voices, we just have to speak all the more loudly to be heard.

	14-04-2004 20:18									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski HongHu, some fine arguments, but the poll results speak more clearly than any point-by-point rebuttal. Shall we agree that we disagree, but allow the democratic process to be completed. Thankyou for your interesting opinions. -Jam

Yes. Lets agree to disagree. Let me remind you though your poll only has 17 votes so far. I believe many people like myself is so disgusted about this poll so they have not voted.

	14-04-2004 20:24									#82
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In that case, my dear, I offer you the honourable xenobanana option

-Jam

	14-04-2004 20:27									#83
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No. I refuse to vote in this poll. I consider this to be a personal attack without basis, for certain personal reasons. To vote means I support such behavior.

	14-04-2004 20:29									#84
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The Xenobanana indicates that you abstain from voting. Not to vote at all means neither that you support or disagree. Not voting at all means nothing.

That's WHY the banana option is always there - so people who think the poll/topic/etc is crap can register their dismay.

-Jam

	14-04-2004 20:32									#85
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To be honest, I can't see the point though. The game is practically finished now and we are gearing up for the new one. Tass will not be a mod for the next game, so there isn't much point for this poll.

	14-04-2004 20:32									#86
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My understanding of the banana option is that it says "I don't care". But I do care.

	14-04-2004 20:33									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns To be honest, I can't see the point though. The game is practically finished now and we are gearing up for the new one. Tass will not be a mod for the next game, so there isn't much point for this poll.

Exactly. Except that the timing of the poll still allows people to gain infinite amount of postcounts from it.

	14-04-2004 20:34									#88
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quote: To be honest, I can't see the point though. The game is practically finished now and we are gearing up for the new one. Tass will not be a mod for the next game, so there isn't much point for this poll.

I'm making sure we start a discussion on who will mod the next game. It seems to be working.

* Jamski pushes the stick in the ants nest again *

-Jam

	14-04-2004 20:39									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski I'm making sure we start a discussion on who will mod the next game. -Jam

Sure you are.

	14-04-2004 20:51									#90
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code:

 Jamski   	19
HongHu 	14
Comrade Tassadar 	13
GeoModder 	10
obstructor 	10
FlameFlash 	7
Trithemius 	6
MrWhereItsAt 	4
Skanky Burns 	3
Method 	1
laurentius 	1
GeneralTacticus 	1

quote: Exactly. Except that the timing of the poll still allows people to gain infinite amount of postcounts from it.

Sorry to make you suffer so

Ok, I'm done here. No need to keep making the same points. Those who disagree with me can do so without my responding to them.

-Jam