13-04-2004 23:40									#1
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The introduction of TOW Infantry seems to me to somewhat change the late-game strategy. First, I think I read somewhere on these forums that actual defensive strength is now computed by adding a unit's defensive strength to the units defensive bombard strength. So an archer now effectively has 2 on defense. The TOW Infantry, with its defense of 14 and bombard of 6, now effectively has a defensive strength of 20! That's more than a mechanized infantry.

Even if I'm totally off-base with that "add-bombard" thing, I would say that the TOW Infantry is still the better defender, when used in stacks. A stack of TOW Inf can support each other with defensive bombards, while a stack of MIs cannot. (C3C didn't give MI defensive bombard, did it?) I recently encountered this issue when playing as Russia. The Chinese declared on me in the late game and moved stacks of MI and TOWs into my territory. My MAs killed off the MIs okay, but had a lot more trouble with the defensive-bombarding TOWs.

If TOWs really are better defenders, then it adds some strategic complexity to the late-game. Effectively, it seems like TOWs are not the Medieval Infantry of the Modern age, the consolation prize you build when you're missing a resource. As the better defenders, I would prefer to garrison my cities with TOW stacks than MI stacks. MI, meanwhile, retain a strategic value as the defenders to use during your invasions, as they can better keep pace with MAs to immediately garrison newly-captured cities. At last, there's not an "obvious" build choice in the Modern Age--we get some strategy!

But if TOWs are better stationary defenders, the question then becomes, shouldn't Infantry upgrade to TOW Infantry instead of Mech Infantry? TOWs seem like the better upgrade choice not only from a strategic perspective (the role of the TOW is more like how you use Infantry than is the role of the MechInf), but also from a commonsense perspective (it makes more sense to give riflemen TOWs than to give them vehicles or whatever).

	14-04-2004 04:00									#2
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Well only one path can upgrade to Mech. Infantry. I know it's a bit weird but I think it works fine in practice.

	14-04-2004 04:34									#3
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I'm not sure if the TOW is strictly better than the MI. I would agree that in reasonably large packs, they would have an advantage as they can cross-bombard defensively. However, if defending in small groups (1 or 2), I would still take the MI.

And while I'm not an expert, I don't think the bombard rating adds to defense. Archers certainly don't feel like they have a 2 def.

That said, I don't entirely agree with the way the TOW infantry is implemented in civ3. In practise, TOW rockets are typically mounted on jeeps due to their weight (both the wpn and especially the ammo). They're also typically used in harassing movements, or to beef up scouting/picket forces. So, if it were up to me, a TOW would have at least 2 movement, less defense, and a higher attack. Their role would be much more along the lines of a mobile counter-attacking force.

	14-04-2004 14:12									#4
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TOW are not really better than Mech. Infantry. By this time you'll have stacks of artillery for bombard anyway, and Mech. Infantry is a 2 move unit.

	14-04-2004 15:25									#5
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TOW is the ultimate upgrade for units on the Longbowman upgrade path, all of which have the benefit of defensive bombard.

For this reason I think the TOW is an excellent unit, since Longbowmen/Guerillas and some UU have no other upgrade path. In vanilla civ this left them as pretty useless 4/1/1 Longbows for the rest of the game, and in PTW they only unpgraded as far as 6/6/1 Guerillas IIRC - still pretty useless from the late-industrial age onwards. We now have a unit with a reasonable attack and a quite useful defence, also doubling as defensive artillery. Not half bad if you ask me!

I think this is just a more verbose way of saying what DrSpike was pointing out....that it's finally given us a "tidy" way to collect all those obsolet units, and works pretty well in practice.

	15-04-2004 00:23									#6
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TOW is also the ultimate upgrade for units on the Warrior upgrade path. (Warrior - Sword Men [or UU] - Med Inf - Guerrlia - TOW)

It's actually a life saver if you happen not to have Oil and had the foresight not to disband those ancient warriors you first built as Police Men in early game.

Yes, TOW is best in stacks. But not too big a stack or else the AI will never attack it anyway.

	16-04-2004 19:50									#7
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They look nifty too. With mechanical infantry you just get the boring box on wheels thing.

	16-04-2004 20:13									#8
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TOW is not better than Mechanized Infantry for defense.

Take an example: Veteran Modern Armor attacking a veteran defender fortified in a grassland city (85% defensive bonus).

Ignoring retreat (which favors the MI even more), a defending MI wins 67% of the time, whereas a defending TOW backed by another TOW wins 58% of the time.

	16-04-2004 21:26									#9
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A nice-ish property of TOW that MI lacks is the ability to be dropped by Helicopters, while still defending better than Inf.

	16-04-2004 21:39									#10
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Did that include the round of bombardment the Modern Armor would be subjected to?

In Fall of Rome Conquest, I noted that a small stack of Warlords were suprizely effective at defense dispite their very low defense stat because of their high bombardment stat.

quote: Originally posted by alexman TOW is not better than Mechanized Infantry for defense. Take an example: Veteran Modern Armor attacking a veteran defender fortified in a grassland city (85% defensive bonus). Ignoring retreat (which favors the MI even more), a defending MI wins 67% of the time, whereas a defending TOW backed by another TOW wins 58% of the time.

	16-04-2004 21:47									#11
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Did that include the round of bombardment the Modern Armor would be subjected to?

Of course. Otherwise just comparing the defensive values of the two units would be enough to tell which one is better...

	16-04-2004 22:09									#12
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I modded the TOW so it only has 10 on defence so the people with resources still keep the advantage. Could somone explains the bombard when attacking thing though how much bombard do you get to keep when playing def it never seems like its enough to do much.

I also change MI to a bradly unit I downloaded it looks much better.

	17-04-2004 02:12									#13
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Elais, changes in TOW for the base game are virtually mute.

I heard from multi-player groups that it's rare for such games to get into the Industrial era.

And in my single player games, they tend to either be lost in Ancient Era / early Middle ages or else won in late Middle ages / early Industrial.

Also, the AI in calculating military strength cares much more about the offensive factor than the defensive calculator.

	17-04-2004 02:14									#14
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Did that include the round of bombardment the Modern Armor would be subjected to? In Fall of Rome Conquest, I noted that a small stack of Warlords were suprizely effective at defense dispite their very low defense stat because of their high bombardment stat.

The warlords were made into a puree sauce with my heavy cavalry though Sassanids rule!

	17-04-2004 02:14									#15
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Elais, changes in TOW for the base game are virtually mute. I heard from multi-player groups that it's rare for such games to get into the Industrial era. And in my single player games, they tend to either be lost in Ancient Era / early Middle ages or else won in late Middle ages / early Industrial. (With just a matter of mailing in the turns to get to modern era for spaceship or UN or culture) Also, the AI in calculating military strength cares much more about the offensive factor than the defensive calculator.

	17-04-2004 03:27									#16
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Elais, changes in TOW for the base game are virtually mute. I heard from multi-player groups that it's rare for such games to get into the Industrial era. And in my single player games, they tend to either be lost in Ancient Era / early Middle ages or else won in late Middle ages / early Industrial. Also, the AI in calculating military strength cares much more about the offensive factor than the defensive calculator.

C3C has a modern era?

I've also yet to build tanks in C3C I've only played about 10 games of it, but it seems much easier than PTW...

--mm

	18-04-2004 00:27									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Elias I modded the TOW so it only has 10 on defence so the people with resources still keep the advantage.

As Alexman has already pointed out, Mech Inf are better defenders than TOW. And I need not tell you that MA are incomparably better than TOW on offense.

If you've got the relevant resources, TOW don't have much use beyond helidropping and as upgrade for Guerilla.

quote: Could somone explains the bombard when attacking thing though how much bombard do you get to keep when playing def it never seems like its enough to do much.

It's a normal bombardment attack with the bombard strength of the unit stacked with the defender against the defense of the attacker. TOW has a bombard strength of 6, so against Tanks or MA, the chance of getting a hit aren't that great.

It's never more than one "round", no matter the firing units RoF.

	18-04-2004 04:52									#18
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Well, to be fair, the TOW upgrade makes the warrior/archer basic units far more useful in the long term. Especially vs. the horseman to calvary setup, which is of quite limited use in the modern era (I wonder what exactly I'm supposed to do with a 6/3/3 unit when I'm up against MA and MI).

Personally, I would like to see some form of upgrade for the calvary. While I understand the balance issues for not letting calvary becoming MA, some kind of vaguely useful upgrade would be good. Perhaps a weaker 3 move unit for use in harassing, pillaging and capturing workers while still having a half decent chance vs. 2nd-tier units like infantry and TOW would be interesting.

	18-04-2004 15:11									#19
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Upgrade for the calvary? Is that Mel Gibson's next film...?

	19-04-2004 12:09									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Goethe80 Personally, I would like to see some form of upgrade for the calvary. While I understand the balance issues for not letting calvary becoming MA, some kind of vaguely useful upgrade would be good. Perhaps a weaker 3 move unit for use in harassing, pillaging and capturing workers while still having a half decent chance vs. 2nd-tier units like infantry and TOW would be interesting.

The idea is to put SOME breaks in the upgrade chain so that you can't simply keep upgrading units into better and better ones (which the human is much better at doing efficiently and at critical points in time than the AI is).

With enough Artillery and Bombers, even Cavalry can do quite well against Infantry. And the fact that they can move 3 tiles gives them the mobility and pillaging advantage in the game until Modern Armor arrive.

	19-04-2004 16:59									#21
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Thanks to the AI's scatterbrained approach to bombardment, I find the Cav/Inf/Arty era one of the easiest to make conquests in.

	19-04-2004 21:30									#22
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Wait a minnuet are you guys saying you rarely get into the modern era??? Thats when I conquer the world Its the only time I can build up enough troops. I Think cavalary should upgrade to somthing too its really annoying having to rebuild your entire offense. Well then agin at least we have upgrades rember CTP

	19-04-2004 21:37									#23
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Well if you plan a late game offensive you can concentrate on bombard units and maybe some defenders. Most of the time the cavalry window is the one to hit if you want to finish early though.

	20-04-2004 02:08									#24
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Well, like I mentioned, I understand the balance issues limiting the horseman-calvalry upgrade path. But the strange thing is that right now, the only obsolete land unit is the calvalry. Even your warrior/swordsman/archers get to become TOW (heh, the point of this entire thread i'd think)!

quote: Originally posted by Trip The idea is to put SOME breaks in the upgrade chain so that you can't simply keep upgrading units into better and better ones (which the human is much better at doing efficiently and at critical points in time than the AI is). With enough Artillery and Bombers, even Cavalry can do quite well against Infantry. And the fact that they can move 3 tiles gives them the mobility and pillaging advantage in the game until Modern Armor arrive.

	20-04-2004 02:29									#25
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And like I said, Cavalry can still have useful application until Modern Armor come on the scene. Up to that point they're the only 3-move combat units and are very good at snatching up undefended Workers and Settlers, pillaging strategic roads and taking advantage of front breakthroughs (more important against humans).

	20-04-2004 03:59									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Goethe80 (I wonder what exactly I'm supposed to do with a 6/3/3 unit when I'm up against MA and MI).

Cram 'em into armies and make them 8/4/4 blitz units (if I'm clear on the army/pentagon bonus), then use them to pick off any infantry or below units, especially damaged, in order to save your limited MA attacks each turn for the MI's and tougher infantry units.