14-04-2004 22:05									#1
	Modifing pop-rush benefits Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Pop-rushing gives 20 shields per population point spent.
Also gives 1 unhappy face for 20 turns per popoulation point spent.

In ealry days of Civ3, it was slightly different.
First pop gave 40 shields and rest 20 shields.
(now it's fixed at 20 shields)

Currently pop-rushing is usually only useful for some sort of "quick-drafting" of Spearmen and Archers.
And in Industrail era it becomes pointless with Drafting around.


Idea:
What if benefits get increased to 30 shields per pop.
How would that affect balance?

Would it be too good with ability to rush Swordsmen and Horsemen?

But with possibility of rushing Musketmen for 2 pop or Knight for 3 pop could it actauly become more useful at later stages?

	15-04-2004 01:05									#2
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I find that in general, poprushing is simply not worth it in productive cities. I'm doubtful raising it to 30 shields would make it worth it in productive cities, as aside from the problem of getting your pop back, the unhappiness is a major problem. Where poprushing shines is in farther out cities during despotism. Due to their distance and despotism's crushing corruption, these aren't going to be productive until revolt and/or some courthouse building, so you don't need their pops high, which is where happiness becomes a problem anyway. These cities are good for poprushing a few items like temples or courthouses while they wait for a better form of government.

So, if you changed it up to 30 shields, the main change to my game is fronteir cities could spit out a few more things pre-revolt than before. I generally don't poprush in more productive cities which is where I build barracks.

	17-04-2004 18:41									#3
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Anyone else?

I'm now inclined to increase the effect in my mod.
Only problem is a fear that maybe getting Swordsmen and Horsemen for 1 pop could be unbalaced.

	17-04-2004 19:39									#4
	Increase Your PM Length

i disabled it completely except during despo - I just couldn't take it that the AI commited suicide for a few worthless units that couldn't do shiat to stop me anyway

	17-04-2004 20:09									#5
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I'd be worried about finishing Granaries. In principle, If the city grows twice more before the time that you would have 30 shields without pop-rushing, then you wouldn't lose any food by rushing. This might not happen that often but there would be plenty of times when you'd only lose 10 food. The next build is likely to be a settler so even this could see a net gain eventually.

It would normally be worth raising the entertainment rate by 20% early on to keep everyone happy for expanding even slightly faster.

At 20 shiels, it's almost never worth doing this in practice but at 30, they're are plenty of situations where rushing early might make sense.

	18-04-2004 02:23									#6
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Where pop rushing = unhappiness it is generally not worth it, I feel, however I did too disable in all but one government keeping it as a contrast. I like your idea of upping the value of pop rushing to 30 or even higher and will try it out with that one govt type. In an government the AI's won't get stuck in I hope, just in case they go for suicide!

	18-04-2004 04:02									#7
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Pop rushing was horridly powerful when it did not really cost anything, of course thats only because the AI didn't use it.

Man I pop rushed so much out of so many cities one game that I had conquered 50 cities in the ancient era and gobs of horsemen.

I think this is one of those things that will go between too powerful and worthless.

	18-04-2004 05:06									#8
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Well, I remember that many things did teakwed with pop-rushing since vanilla version.

Especially to squash all possibile exploits with it.


But, on the longer run, it become wortless when getting 40 shields from first pop was removed.

	18-04-2004 16:44									#9
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Despotism should suck. Raising the shields you receive higher again is a bad move IMO. At present rushing is effective in small amounts and in non-core cities, which is a nicely balanced setup.

	18-04-2004 18:40									#10
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It's not all about Despotism.

There is a Feudalism and Communism around.

	18-04-2004 18:42									#11
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Fair enough. I'd recommend that any changes you consider do not apply to despotism though.

What is more, feudalism is irrelevant (unless you buff rushing so much just for feudalism that it becomes viable ) , and communism already rather powerful. I don't see why you'd want to buff that.

	18-04-2004 22:13									#12
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Unfortunately,, there is just one value in editor, for all governments.


EDIT:
By the way, what aspect of pop-rushing you'll find unbalaning with 30 shields rush?

Is it ability to trade 1pop for 1 Swordsmen?

Somehow when I get calculations strait, that same city in order to recover needs 20 turns.

So in order to keep it happy, it means one rushing in 20 turns, or on average getting 1.5 shields in turn.

Of course, on the other hand it's a bit fron-loaded, since you get some benfits eary and then suffer later.

	18-04-2004 22:55									#13
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Hmm, you can't change it for each govt individually? That seems clumsy.

Regarding why I think 20 is more balanced than 30 it's not just the units issue you identified. The core cities and camps can produce units (and infrastructure) more efficiently than rushing for the most part, so I tend to use it sparingly for that purpose. The real benefit comes in building infrastructure in outlying cities.

30 shields is a big enough buff to make rushing powerful in the core (for granaries springs to mind) also, so rushing would become much more prevalent.

I prefer it the way it is now; it's more finely balanced whether to rush or not rush, particularly in the cities one would neither call core or outlying. Such decisions add to the game. I'd also add that (and in part maybe this is a bias) 30 shields buffs despotism as compared to rep/monarchy, and I don't think that should be the case. Pop rushing should be powerful enough to be useful in some situations (as it is) but not so powerful it becomes overused in the opening, and provides too large an incentive to stay in despotism. IMO 20 shields is pretty much spot on.

	18-04-2004 23:59									#14
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike 30 shields is a big enough buff to make rushing powerful in the core (for granaries springs to mind) also, so rushing would become much more prevalent.

Hmm...

So by rushing granary, you get 2 unhappy pop for 40 turns and faster growth of the city (which won't be utilized due to added unhappines).

	19-04-2004 00:05									#15
	Remove this text

And now, for something totally different:
After having seen extensive abuse -- to their own detriment -- of the AI's pop-rushing in fascism/communism, I don't let them do it at all anymore. First I had them unable to rush at all, but now I am trying with cash-rushing.

The population rush losses are just too extreme in the industrial age. They should be based on number of people (not population point), and a population point should only be lost when accumulated to what a population point is at that pop level.

Other than that, pop-rushing by the AI is broken because the AI is (semi-) broken. I haven't gone back to PTW -- yet.

	19-04-2004 00:27									#16
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quote: Originally posted by player1 Hmm... So by rushing granary, you get 2 unhappy pop for 40 turns and faster growth of the city (which won't be utilized due to added unhappines).

Well more realistic may be 1 rush + build. Also the double rush may well prove to be doable with a nice start.

	19-04-2004 01:58									#17
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Well, 1rush + build will save 10shields compared to standard rules.

I'm not sure that it will make too much difference.

	19-04-2004 04:18									#18
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quote: Originally posted by player1 So by rushing granary, you get 2 unhappy pop for 40 turns and faster growth of the city (which won't be utilized due to added unhappines).

I believe you get 2 unhappy citizens for 20 turns, as long as you have at least two citizens as laborers. Did this change?

Also, don't be so sure that the faster growth won't be utilized. A Granary pop-rush might be just what a high-food, low-production city needs to become a 2-turn Worker pump, and a couple of units for MP take care of the unhappiness for 20 turns...

	19-04-2004 06:04									#19
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quote: Originally posted by alexman I believe you get 2 unhappy citizens for 20 turns, as long as you have at least two citizens as laborers. Did this change?

Actually, it's 20 turns for 1 pop.
40 turns for second,
60 for third
and so on...
(or regaining happines by 1 pop per 20 turns)

	19-04-2004 07:00									#20
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OK, you made me have doubts so I quickly tested it.
I whipped two out of four citizens and increased the luxury slider so that the other two citizens could continue to work the land. After 20 turns, everyone forgot the unhappiness.

So nothing's changed since vanilla Civ. The unhappiness is 20 laborer-turns per citizen whipped.

The unhappiness duration is cumulative only if you don't have enough laborers to actually be unhappy. So if you pop-rush 3 citizens but have just one citizen working the land (with the rest entertainers), you will get 60 turns unhappiness as you say. But if 3 citizens are working the land, you get just 20 turns of unhappiness.

	19-04-2004 12:04									#21
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quote: Originally posted by alexman OK, you made me have doubts so I quickly tested it. I whipped two out of four citizens and increased the luxury slider so that the other two citizens could continue to work the land. After 20 turns, everyone forgot the unhappiness. So nothing's changed since vanilla Civ. The unhappiness is 20 laborer-turns per citizen whipped. The unhappiness duration is cumulative only if you don't have enough laborers to actually be unhappy. So if you pop-rush 3 citizens but have just one citizen working the land (with the rest entertainers), you will get 60 turns unhappiness as you say. But if 3 citizens are working the land, you get just 20 turns of unhappiness.

Strange, I just ran a test before posting my last post whcih confirmed what I said.


Well, I'll doo anmother round just for a case.

	19-04-2004 12:49									#22
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It has always been the way Alexman suggested. I doubt it has changed. Think of it as unhappiness/people turns. There are 40, and 2 citizens, so they share the total for 20 turns. You are correct it would be 40 starting from 3, since then there would only be 1 citizen to bear the 40 turns.

	19-04-2004 14:58									#23
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Hmm...

But I know when I rushed Numidiam Mercemary at size of 3 and got 2 unhappy faces, that after 20 turns I only regained one happy face.

Strange, I think I'll test it again.

	19-04-2004 16:13									#24
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If your city was size 3 before the rush then what you say could be consistent with how it works. I don't know your luxury/MP situation.

After the 2 rushes you only have 1 citizen to bear the 40 turns, and what is more unmodified he is *double unhappy* since the way the unhappiness stacks with low popuations changed around 1.17f. Modified he could be content or even happy.

Ergo after 20 turns with no city growth he might be only unhappy, but you could see no change.

With growth the overall length would be something like 25 turns, with 2 citizens sharing the last 15 turns.

Hopefully that helps; your discrepancy is almost certainly from either not calculating the unhappiness/turns correctly, or perhaps not taking into account double unhappies.

Also, if you started from 5 there would be 3 persons to bear the 40 turns

	19-04-2004 16:20									#25
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Not 2 rushes.

One rush that drains 2 pop points.

	19-04-2004 16:39									#26
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Now I tested it agian.

I rushed Numidian Merecenary at 4 pop city (with one or two shields in queue).

I also noticed that you can't rush 2 pop on same thing if you pop is lower then four.


Then I got 2 pop city with 2 extra unhappy faces (monarch).

After some time it become 3 pop city with extra 2 unhappy faces (total of 3 unhappy).

After the 20 turns from rush passed it left with one extra unhapiness.

And then only after next 20 turn later it became normal.

	19-04-2004 16:53									#27
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quote: Originally posted by player1 Not 2 rushes. One rush that drains 2 pop points.

There's no difference. My points are still correct I think.

However, I can't explain your test. I can't see why your results are different from Alexman's. His are consistent with how it worked in vanilla.

	19-04-2004 16:58									#28
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By the way, it is easy to incrementally rush as long as there is something that is 30 shields (or 20 normally). You can rush, switch, and rush again.

Also after 20 turns what happens when you click the unhappy person?

	19-04-2004 19:38									#29
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Player 1, were both of the remaining citizens assigned to work the land during the first 20 turns of your test, or was one of them an entertainer?

	19-04-2004 20:22									#30
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All land workers.

I had spare warriors to keep happines and to switch them in and out to test unhappiness.


[QUOTE]DrSpike:
Also after 20 turns what happens when you click the unhappy person?[QUOTE]

I had some unhappiness from overcrowding and some because of rushing (but one less from rushing).