15-04-2004 07:16									#1
	Recommend City Pollution Managers Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Many people think the current process of using workers to deal with pollution, is not realistic. Instead of creating and moving workers to polluted squares, I suggest the following:

Create a new city specialist, in addition to the 3 already available, making 4 total:

Tax Collector
Entertainer
Scientist
Pollution Manager ****New proposal

The new pollution manager specialist will cost the city money for the cleanup operations that would otherwise have been used for other priorities, like production.

This approach will:

1. Create an ever increasing production impact as pollution increases in one or more affected cities. (If no action is taken, the pollution will dramatically lower city production, which demands player intervention to solve the problem)

2. Require more pollution managers to support the city cleanup operations as the "amount" of city pollution increases.

3. Eliminate Worker relocation to polluted squares.


I think the proposed pollution manager is a more realistic way to deal with pollution in every city and should be incorporated into Civilization 4.


Anyone agree or disagree?


IronMan

	19-04-2004 23:32									#2
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You forgot to add bananas as a poll option. What would such a manager manage to be called manager, decide which tile to wash and which to not wash?

If it's just as entertainers and all that, then I don't think that "managing pollution" is as general as an economy more oriented towards services/research which corresponds to entertainers and researchers. I hardly hear about economies oriented towards cleaning

	20-04-2004 15:04									#3
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Are you saying that in the city in which you live, no money is spent to dispose of trash, no recycling programs exist and water is not treated to filter out contaminates? What about the cost for street sweepers and hazardous waste programs? Indeed, every city must provide expenditures to deal with pollution.

What you don't see is workers from California going out to New York to clean up pollution. Each city hires their own specialists from the local community to deal with specific pollution problems.

In this light, pollution managers or specialists make sense for Civilization 4.


Ironman

	20-04-2004 21:36									#4
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No, I am saying that these little faces representing scientists and entertainers are not there to represent spending on a job or another but the orientation of an economy. R&D economy, service economy.

	21-04-2004 15:06									#5
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Scientists support research, Entertainers affect the population's moral and Tax Collector's support the empire's budget. All 3 take away from production of units and wonders to help the player increase funding in their respective areas. Adding a 4th specialist, the Pollution Manager, would also take funds away from city production to help the player deal with the problem of pollution.

This proposal eliminates the unrealistic movement of workers from California to clean up pollution in New York and forces New York to pay for their own cleanup. As a result, the proposal frees up workers to concentrate on building other important empire projects, like roads, railroads, etc.


Ironman

	21-04-2004 18:22									#6
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Indeed there are many people who work with waste disposal and environmental protection today, at least in industrialized countries.


One major problem with Civ is that most citizens have to work as farmers, still in the industrial and information eras.

In the real world, the efficiency of farming has improved so that fewer people could work the same land, and most of the workforce was available as workforce to the industry. This might be the greatest difference between daily life today and 200 years ago, but it is not a feature in the Civ games.

	22-04-2004 02:27									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Optimizer One major problem with Civ is that most citizens have to work as farmers, still in the industrial and information eras. In the real world, the efficiency of farming has improved so that fewer people could work the same land, and most of the workforce was available as workforce to the industry. This might be the greatest difference between daily life today and 200 years ago, but it is not a feature in the Civ games.

The issue is not about "farming", but rather "pollution".

The proposal can improve the way Civ 4 deals with pollution, which starts to increase dramatically during the industrial age. As an empire approaches Modern times, more city improvements, especially in DYP, greatly reduce the effects of pollution. Advanced cities, that have these improvements, deal with pollution very efficiently and rarely see any more problems with pollution.

Bottom line is: I think most people get tired of the ritual of sending workers clear accross an empire to clean up pollution. Let the City deal with pollution, with the proposed new specialist, until such a time when efficient city advancements can take over the task.


Ironman

	23-04-2004 09:37									#8
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Who cares really about pollution. If you have to clean it, just bring a worker.
If a Bomber bombards your railroads, bring a worker.

In addition Pollution does not have a major role in Civ3 imo.

You can also vote for a Public Work as in CTP as it seems.

	24-04-2004 02:12									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Naokaukodem Who cares really about pollution. If you have to clean it, just bring a worker.

If you are in the industrial age, pollution is a factor and is caused by the following:

City Population and combined pollution points
Airport + 1
Coal Plant + 2
Factories + 2
Iron Works + 4
Manufacturing Plant + 2
Offshore Platform + 2
Research Lab + 1

How you clean up the pollution is the issue here, especially on a huge game map.

1. Do you want to pull multiple workers off of other projects from one end of your empire and have to move them to the other end of the empire to clean up a polluted square?

or

2. Do you want to convert one or more "production" workers into pollution specialists to "directly" clean up pollution within the affected city (just like creating entertainers to stop unrest)?

Which is easier to you?
Which choice is more realistic?


Ironman

	24-04-2004 11:15									#10
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Don't ask me to choice between one thing or the other. There are workers in the game, but once again, you can play at CTP for Public Work which is pretty what you might look for. But don't ask ME more, as i didn't play to it.

	30-04-2004 12:58									#11
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How about building a blue box program, a toxic household waste depot, and an energy efficency information campaign?

	01-05-2004 01:43									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Flinx How about building a blue box program, a toxic household waste depot, and an energy efficency information campaign?

How about some constructive ideas concerning the proposal?

Workers vs Pollution Specialists....


Ironman

	01-05-2004 03:59									#13
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quote: Originally posted by IronMan How about some constructive ideas concerning the proposal? Workers vs Pollution Specialists.... Ironman

It was a constructive proposal

In CTP pollution is reduced by buildings: "Recycling Plant" and "Public Transportation" in the modern era and "Matter Decompiler" and "Eco-Transit" in the future. Civ does not have a future era so I came up with 3 modern era examples.

	01-05-2004 04:33									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Flinx It was a constructive proposal

"Recycling Plant", "Public Transportation", "Matter Decompiler" and "Eco-Transit" are all NEW proposals. You might define them as city improvements, which reduce pollution in a given city by a certain factor. CIV 3 already has various city improvements that reduce pollution. A few more may not be a bad idea.

However, I believe the current proposal is asking how a city can reduce pollution, until such a time a city improvement can be made. Currently, Civ 3 uses workers to clean up polluted squares. The proposal suggests CIV 4 convert one or more "production" workers into pollution specialists to "directly" clean up pollution within the affected city. Pollution would accumulate in the city and not on the surrounding squares. It may take several pollution specialists to hold pollution in check, until such a time as a city improvement can be bought or produced. Then the pollution specialists can be converted back into production workers to maximize city production.

Ironman

	01-05-2004 06:39									#15
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Current System:
Remove a citizen from the general population by building a Worker unit and use this unit to clean up pollution.

Proposed System:
Remove a citizen from the general population by conversion to a specialist Pollution Manager whose purpose is to clean up pollution.

This is somehow different?

	01-05-2004 10:03									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Flinx Current System: Remove a citizen from the general population by building a Worker unit and use this unit to clean up pollution. Proposed System: Remove a citizen from the general population by conversion to a specialist Pollution Manager whose purpose is to clean up pollution. This is somehow different?

It is dramatically different! I will explain how:

Current system: Assume you have railroads built connecting all of your cities. You can move workers from anywhere in your empire to clean up a polluted square. These workers don't have to come from the affected city. It's like playing pop goes the weasle, cleaning up the polluted squares and the polluted city is not neccessarily paying for it! There is no effective cost burdon on the city, if workers come in from across the empire to do clean up.

Proposed system: Converting a city production worker into a pollution specialist will directly reduce production output for that city. This loss of production continues, until a pollution reducing improvement is either built or paid for, which lowers the pollution output value for the city. The polluted city now pays for the cost of clean up and the affect is a loss of that city's production. That is the difference.

Is not the proposal more realistic than playing pop goes the weasle?


Ironman

	01-05-2004 10:24									#17
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quote: Originally posted by IronMan Is not the proposal more realistic than playing pop goes the weasle?

No. In real life specialised crews travel all over world to clean up waste/pollution. Just like the Civ3 Workers.

	01-05-2004 21:09									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Flinx No. In real life specialised crews travel all over world to clean up waste/pollution. Just like the Civ3 Workers.

Oh really? Do city of San Francisco garbage men, from California, get paid to travel all the way across the country to collect trash from New York city? How about hazardous materials like paint, thinners, pesticides, etc.? No. Individual cities provides these collection services for their local communities. Exception might be for Nuclear waste, which is transported to Nevada. Even then, the city provides the resources to clean it up.

There is a good chance that the city, in which you live, charges you a monthly fee to pick up trash. You might even have a water bill that you pay to protect your clean drinking water from becoming polluted.

Local services are paid for by local communities in a city.


Ironman

	02-05-2004 04:23									#19
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Clearly you are convinced of the superiority of your own idea.

	02-05-2004 06:22									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Flinx Clearly you are convinced of the superiority of your own idea.

Maybe the proposal simply has merit and will improve the game. Maybe not. That is what this poll hopes to find out.


Ironman

	11-05-2004 14:25									#21
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hi ,

yes include pollution managers but keep the worker option also , ....

and it should only be available with enviromental studies or so , ....

have a nice day

	12-05-2004 03:57									#22
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Since when is trash pollution? You're saying that they are one and the same, I'd disagree with you. Pollution is chemicals spilling into the rivers, smog in the air, oil spills, etc. The garbage man picking up my trash every monday morning is not pollution.

I say workers

	12-05-2004 10:36									#23
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

let's return the enginneers!!
with new options and capabilities!
i agree with the polution manager.. and i agree to create more kind of specialists

	12-05-2004 12:35									#24
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Iron Man has a point, but only partially I think because H Tower is right: trash and chemical wastes are different types of "pollution". And in real world, not any worker goes out to clean nuclear or toxic wastes, which are the ones we are really talking about when a square becomes polluted. Hence workers (or better Civ2 Engineers) should remain to clean up that kind of pollution.
But why not also have another specialist (by the way, Civ3 has more than 3 specialist, have you played it Iron Man or are you based on Civ2?)? The city can very well dedicate someone to enforcing antipollution law, whic would have an effect in containing the level of pollution the city generates: controlling plants or cars and trucks, etc... No need to have an extra reduction of production given that the citizen specialized in this task already causes production to drop... unless he was an extra idle citizen when all squares are already occupied.

	13-05-2004 09:49									#25
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quote: Originally posted by IronMan Oh really? Do city of San Francisco garbage men, from California, get paid to travel all the way across the country to collect trash from New York city? How about hazardous materials like paint, thinners, pesticides, etc.? No. Individual cities provides these collection services for their local communities. Exception might be for Nuclear waste, which is transported to Nevada. Even then, the city provides the resources to clean it up. There is a good chance that the city, in which you live, charges you a monthly fee to pick up trash. You might even have a water bill that you pay to protect your clean drinking water from becoming polluted. Local services are paid for by local communities in a city. Ironman

hi ,

well he probably did not have the garbage men on his thoughts , .... since we dont have streets we can look at the pollution as something thats bigger , in other words like it is now , ....


but we should be able to let a worker clean up lets say in an area of only 30 X 30 squares on top of the regular pollution cleanup , ....

have a nice day

	14-05-2004 02:52									#26
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quote: Originally posted by panag ...we should be able to let a worker clean up lets say in an area of only 30 X 30 squares on top of the regular pollution cleanup

Thus, far the vote is split evenly and I believe it indicates a desire to have both options! Perhaps when city polution gets so high and the pollution managers, are not created to clean it up, then the squares around the city become polluted also. This would force clean up requiring both workers and city pollution specialists. You might say it's like calling in for federal disaster relief workers, who work along with city officials to clean up the mess in the surrounding areas. There is some realism with having both.

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea. Why limit ourselves to one or the other, when we can satisfy both camps on the issue?

Does anyone agree or disagree?


Ironman

	14-05-2004 03:54									#27
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I agree except for point 3. If pollution happens workers must still clean it. I imagine that you mean that one pollution manager will take away one deathheads sign?

	18-05-2004 09:33									#28
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quote: Originally posted by IronMan Thus, far the vote is split evenly and I believe it indicates a desire to have both options! Perhaps when city polution gets so high and the pollution managers, are not created to clean it up, then the squares around the city become polluted also. This would force clean up requiring both workers and city pollution specialists. You might say it's like calling in for federal disaster relief workers, who work along with city officials to clean up the mess in the surrounding areas. There is some realism with having both. The more I think about it, the more I like the idea. Why limit ourselves to one or the other, when we can satisfy both camps on the issue? Does anyone agree or disagree? Ironman

hi ,

its a good idea

the managers could also limit thenselfs for example to building pollution or so , they should be able to cut it max in half or so , ....

have a nice day

	18-05-2004 21:56									#29
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I liked the MOO2 (master of orion 2) pollution system better than any system I've seen in other games. Instead of pollution being a micro managed hell, it is enacted more abstractly. In MOO2 when a planet makes lots of production, it begins to produce pollution. The more production you have the more pollution it makes (roughly 1 pollution for every 2 production). Each point of pollution subtracts 1 point from production to represent the effort required to clean up and dispose of the excess waste. This was modified by things such as pollution processors and the like (aka recycling centers).

So instead of having to sit there and manually clean the crap up, you instead just have a production penalty. The incentive for things like mass transit system and recycling center would still be there but pollution would no longer be annoying and micro managed... You could still leave in the ability to damage tiles (bombing, artillery, volcanoes and nukes) as these types of damage should be more severe and difficult to clean up.

Just my 2 cents.

	19-05-2004 15:20									#30
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I agree to the above regarding pollution from production.

One observation though. I have found that population and not production is the main source of pollution.

How is this to be implemented Moo2 style?