16-04-2004 11:27									#1
	Doesn't the service industry preclude communist revolt? Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

there aint much of a proleteriat in the US and Europe. Theres some "lumpen proletariat" but we're mostly a society of "petty bourgeious" and clerks. most American jobs are service-related. where are the factory workers to organize and lead onto proletariat dictatorship? Chegitz?

	16-04-2004 11:33									#2
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Most commie revolutions happen in 3rd world countries with big outmoded heavy industries and farming sectors.

	16-04-2004 11:37									#3
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yes apparently, the communists have globalized marx's historical theory and now see the entire West as bourgeious oppressors of the entire third world proletariat. so have they given up on revolt in America and Europe?

	16-04-2004 11:38									#4
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0/10.

Communism can't work in America because there aren't enough tanks to go around.

	16-04-2004 12:00									#5
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I can't possibly see communism working in America. In fact most of the western countries I couldn't see it working in.

	16-04-2004 12:02									#6
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yes communism will work in american. It's a slow progression. It will take another century or two to finish the brainwashing.

I, of course, will fight against that.

	16-04-2004 12:10									#7
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Ahhh yes over a bloody long timeline then sure I suppose anything is possible. But for the moment capitalism is very much in the blood.

	16-04-2004 12:13									#8
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Well I must be honest, commie revolutions only happen in places where people don't have proper education. They get duped easily into believeing something that will destroy themselves.

	16-04-2004 12:36									#9
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I'm tending to agree.

	16-04-2004 18:28									#10
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To answer the question, no, it does not.

The point being that at some point, capitalism will have built its antithetical forces up enough to bring the system crashing down.

The one factor delaying the "revolution" is the welfare state. It minimizes the misery that capitalism can cause. Ending the welfare state is the fastest way to speed up the revolution.

	16-04-2004 18:33									#11
	Re: Doesn't the service industry preclude communist revolt? Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer there aint much of a proleteriat in the US and Europe. Theres some "lumpen proletariat" but we're mostly a society of "petty bourgeious" and clerks. most American jobs are service-related. where are the factory workers to organize and lead onto proletariat dictatorship?

proletariat != factory workers.
proletariat= those who have nothing to sell but their ability t do work

That means a lot of service workers are proletarians. The vast majority of people in the U.S. and Europe are proles. Our productivity is just so great that we can live a "middle-class" life-style.

The real middle-classes are people who own their own small means of production, such as farmers and shop keepers, and also those who sell trained services, from land scapers to laywers. The people who work for them, however, are proles.

	16-04-2004 18:37									#12
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quote: Originally posted by GePap The one factor delaying the "revolution" is the welfare state. It minimizes the misery that capitalism can cause. Ending the welfare state is the fastest way to speed up the revolution.

Some would say it just previews the misery to be expected of total communism.

	16-04-2004 18:40									#13
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Since in 'classical marxism', the revolution comes at the point of Capitalism's highest productivity-no, I don;t expect anything like the capitalism welfare state.

	16-04-2004 18:41									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer yes apparently, the communists have globalized marx's historical theory. . .

No, just the Maoists.

	16-04-2004 18:52									#15
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As Che said, the proles can work in any field, as long as they can sell nothing else than their workforce. A McJob can be easily considered as prole-ish as a job in the factory.

What makes the revolution unlikely in our western societies is that, thank welfare, people do not live in utter misery. Most of today's workers have some comfort they could lose in a revolution, much more so than the Russian peasants and workers of 1917.

	16-04-2004 19:04									#16
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I don't see welfare so much as a delay of communism, but a step towards communism. Look at Europe now (or 20 years ago), state owned industries, huge welfare states, etc. Communism creeps in slowly, as the government takes over more and more of society until there is nothing left and a communist state exists.

Sure thats not Marxism, but it looks like thats whats happening to me.

	16-04-2004 19:07									#17
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Iain Banks has it correct: Communism will be a great system when we are able to tap stars for energy sources, machines do all physical labor, nanotechnology provides all, and people are bored and well-fed. Until then, we need Capitalism to get us there.

	16-04-2004 19:19									#18
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP I don't see welfare so much as a delay of communism, but a step towards communism.

No, it's definately a delay. The existence of a workers state in the East meant that the threat of was real. Revolution could happen. Welfare reforms were grduingly given up by the capitalists in order to hold on to the rest of their power. Better to lose 50% than to lose 100%.

As long as the workers have enough to eat, have decent housing, access to health care, and are reasonably secure in their future, they aren't very likely to revolt (though Mai '68 shows it's not impossible).

Now that the USSR's collapsed, the welfare states are busy trying to figure out how to take these reforms back.

	16-04-2004 19:43									#19
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara As long as the workers have enough to eat, have decent housing, access to health care, and are reasonably secure in their future, they aren't very likely to revolt (though Mai '68 shows it's not impossible).

One should not idealize Mai '68 for what it isn't. On the one hand, there were middle-class students having fun at their revolution (with a small core of serious revolutionaries), in order to shake the dull French society, and on the other hand, there were major strikes from workers demanding better working consitions. All in all, it was much more aimed at making the welfare society better, than at switching to another economic model altogether.

	16-04-2004 19:49									#20
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP I don't see welfare so much as a delay of communism, but a step towards communism. Look at Europe now (or 20 years ago), state owned industries, huge welfare states, etc. Communism creeps in slowly, as the government takes over more and more of society until there is nothing left and a communist state exists.

That is not communism, and it is silly how many times people need to be told that, over and over and over and over.

	16-04-2004 19:55									#21
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quote: Originally posted by GePap That is not communism, and it is silly how many times people need to be told that, over and over and over and over.

well, you can't cure stupid... so don't even try.

	16-04-2004 19:57									#22
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Says a person who has rejected every cure known to Man.

	16-04-2004 19:58									#23
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no, I keep cure for cancer and get +1 happy in each city

	16-04-2004 20:02									#24
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Ok, well when the government owns all the industry a.k.a. means of production, what would you call it?

	16-04-2004 20:03									#25
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Duh! That's neo-Communism, not Communism!

	16-04-2004 20:07									#26
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Ah, of course.

Would that make Keanu Reeves their enlightened dictator?

	16-04-2004 20:10									#27
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WHOAHH! Dude its like total communism except its not.

	16-04-2004 20:13									#28
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Ozzy, I'm curious - in which European states does the government own more means of production now than they did, say 25 years ago?

	16-04-2004 20:13									#29
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP Ok, well when the government owns all the industry a.k.a. means of production, what would you call it?

In real Communism, there is no government.

	16-04-2004 20:14									#30
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP Ok, well when the government owns all the industry a.k.a. means of production, what would you call it?

Statist socialism, although such did not happen in western Europe. The most 'socialist' country of western Europe (Statist actually), France, was called a "mixed economy" because the very large private sector was complemented with State-owned majors.

Welfare is not communism by any standards, because it doesn't act upon the "who owns the means of production" question. Welfare and capitalism can meld together very well, and all social-democrats on this planet support such a model. It is possible to have a welfare State with a very tiny public sector (Bismarck's Germany comes to mind, but postwar Germany comes to mind as well)