04-05-2004 19:21									#31
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I like the pilliaging idea.

And I do use it.

If Im just trying to trim down an opponent, I capture and raze a city or two, and then pilliage em like heck.

It usually stes em back enough that they never catch up.

	04-05-2004 19:57									#32
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I used large-scale late-game "pillaging" in the form of aircraft bombing runs and artillery in AU 501 to good effect when I invaded the Maya - I didn't have the forces to withstand a full-on counterattack, so I made it so their troops had to slog through unimproved land to get to me. A happy side effect was being able to cut off a luxury and take away some food production from their capitol - for the AI, losing lategame food is a bigger deal than for me - I rarely have cities anywhere near as big as AIs.

That said, pillaging in the late game is a special case - if I need to do it, I will, especially after Replaceable Parts - and "I'm going to use the land anyway" is not a deterrent for me, especially with the hordes of workers I'll have that late.

In fact, it seems that pillaging is a special case no matter what stage of the game you are in - sometimes it makes sense, sometimes it doesn't - which might make for a good course if the post-pillage part of the game can be kept interesting and challenging.

	04-05-2004 20:13									#33
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Ditto what ducki said

I did the same thing and then just fixed the lands with workers.

Its great for screwing up the enemy production and can put larger cities into disorder/ force them to use entertainers, further screwing up production.

Pilliaging ROCKS! And I LOVE craters

	05-05-2004 01:22									#34
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Funny I was thinking of posting a request for workers to be able to terraform craters, they are ugly.

	05-05-2004 01:29									#35
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Nathans idea seems the best one that has been presented so far, but could I suggest an addition to the civs:

Carthage, would show us exactly when and where pillaging becomes uneconomical, since the NM is 30 shields

	05-05-2004 01:45									#36
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I say we go with a pilliaging theme.


Thats my vote

	05-05-2004 04:00									#37
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Actually, No Conquering Cities gets along well with, if not requires, heavy pillaging.
It may defeat the purpose of pillaging course, though, since there's no alternative than pillaging.

	05-05-2004 18:17									#38
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What are craters?

	05-05-2004 20:12									#39
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Holes in the ground from bombardment. They cannot be removed.

	05-05-2004 21:07									#40
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Holes in the ground from bombardment. They cannot be removed.

I dont think so, its been a while since I did that game BUT I believe you can "clean up" a cratered tile similar to how you "clean up" pollution.

I believe it is the same command as clean pollution as well.

But then again its been a while but Im almost positive you can clean up craters.

	05-05-2004 22:49									#41
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Wow how stupid I am. I tried to terraform (road/mine etc) and never tried to use clean up. It works, thanks for the tip.

	06-05-2004 00:51									#42
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Wow how stupid I am. I tried to terraform (road/mine etc) and never tried to use clean up. It works, thanks for the tip.

If you post a small screenshot I'll promise to stop posting off topic.


I can live with pillaging but I still think the no tech trading idea sounds better. See I've already started

	06-05-2004 01:20									#43
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Sorry guys, is this what you want to see?

Attachment: crater.jpg
This has been downloaded 81 time(s).

	06-05-2004 01:37									#44
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Yes. Thank You! I guess I haven't played the modern Era since PTW.

And now returning to topic. I still would like to see a 5CC challenge for an AU course. So in summary.

1) No tech trading challenge
2) 5CC
3) Pillage, Pillage, Pillage

	06-05-2004 02:04									#45
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5CC and no tech trading? Nearly impossible I say.

	06-05-2004 16:58									#46
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count me in for the next AU course, RL permitting.

will have to try to install again, but at least Ill have a reason to try..

	06-05-2004 19:27									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Risa 5CC and no tech trading? Nearly impossible I say.

And you only get to play on Sid

Sorry for the confusion. I was just ranking 3 seperate ideas, not combining them.

	06-05-2004 19:58									#48
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Pilliage, Pilliage, Pilliage !

	06-05-2004 20:33									#49
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Hmmm...
How about Pillage, Pillage, Pillage.
As the Inca.
In a mountainous, deserty, coastal region(somewhat similar to the Inca in AU502).

Maybe with a single Lake near(but not immediately next to) the start spot.


Too historical?
Too "massaged"?
Too few folks want to endure as the Inca?

	06-05-2004 22:04									#50
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Inca will be ok - good to brush up on our expansionist skills. Just as long as it isn't archipelago!

	07-05-2004 05:37									#51
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My thought was to give players a choice among the four civs I listed so we could see what players do with the different civs and UUs under identical conditions.

	07-05-2004 05:58									#52
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay My thought was to give players a choice among the four civs I listed so we could see what players do with the different civs and UUs under identical conditions.

	07-05-2004 09:31									#53
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Here's another possible thought for the next AU game: "Pillage and plunder." The idea is to destroy the growth of neighboring AIs early through pillaging. Players would have a choice of playing the Aztecs, Incas, Sumerians, or Greeks. (The Aztecs and Incas have fast-moving UUs that they can pillage with, while the Sumerians and Greeks have UUs with a major cost/power advantage over anything they can be counterattacked with.) The map would be Continents, designed to provide very little fresh water to support the use of the Agricultural trait in REXing (and no fresh water at all near the human capital). The goals of the game would be for us to learn more about early-game pillaging tactics (something I've used exactly once in my entire Civ 3 career) and, in the process, hopefully to find out more about how the Enkidu compares with other good pillaging UUs.

	07-05-2004 19:26									#54
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Add a spaceship target to the above proposal (for those who want to have a goal beyond the early-game pillaging) and it's perfect.

	07-05-2004 20:09									#55
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If without additional restrictions, targeting to spaceship will prove little about resources. There's no such thing as 'resources scarcity' to warmongers, or at least some pure builders might proclaim that.

	07-05-2004 20:49									#56
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Still, it could provide some insight. Not everyone will play AU 503 as a warmongerer. I'm sure plenty of players will stop fighting when they own their continent.

	07-05-2004 21:07									#57
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At most, I would not want to do more than say, "Players are encouraged to aim for a space race victory." There is nothing about the early pillaging concept that makes it particularly important for players to choose the space race victory condition, and there is a very real risk that specifying a particular victory condition could interfere with some players' fun. Encouraging but not requiring players to aim for a particular victory condition could provide an additional goal for those who want it without undermining others' enjoyment.

Regarding resources, I would argue that the lengths to which players have to go to secure resources would provide some indication about the effects of resource scarcity. If warmongers only have resources because they captured them, does that not say something?

Nathan

	07-05-2004 21:09									#58
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quote: Originally posted by alexman Still, it could provide some insight. Not everyone will play AU 503 as a warmongerer. I'm sure plenty of players will stop fighting when they own their continent.

And a player who fights to control his entire continent isn't a warmonger?

	07-05-2004 22:28									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Risa If without additional restrictions, targeting to spaceship will prove little about resources. There's no such thing as 'resources scarcity' to warmongers, or at least some pure builders might proclaim that.

That's what DARs are for.
The warmongers will tell us when they go to war for a resource/luxury.
The builders will tell us when they are forced to do so or when they manipulate relations to be able to trade for one.


In my vision, the courses are not supposed to determine your path. The courses are to teach/learn something about the game and the comparison afforded by the DARs is where we see major differences in execution and effectiveness and whether or not peaceful players were forced to alter their playstyle in order to pursue their selected victory goal.


If this were a competition, I might agree that certain further restrictions would help level the playing field, but this is purely about learning. If we prescribe too much about playstyle, we won't have as much to compare, since everyone will be playing very similarly.

That's just my opinion, but I feel the fewer restrictions/variant rules we impose, the more we can learn.

	07-05-2004 23:29									#60
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay And a player who fights to control his entire continent isn't a warmonger?

Heh, not unless that's enough to win by domination!

No, seriously, my two comments were supposed to be unrelated: 1) I'm sure plenty of players will stop before getting control of the continent (which is often not enough to secure all the resources needed for the spaceship, depending on the size of the continent) and 2) Some players might not fight at all, except for the pillage and plunder theme. Those are the non-warmongerers by most standards.