17-04-2004 01:10									#1
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So...AU502 was a great course and many people have played it, but it seems to be waning in interest now. Time to start discussion about a new course.

Burning Questions:
1. What kind of game do we want to play?
2. Who will design the course?
3. Are there going to be more updates to the AU mod before we play?

Let's get the discussion going.

	17-04-2004 01:15									#2
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Here is the link to a bunch of ideas that were suggested back when I created AU210 UN Peacekeepers.

AU course suggestions

	17-04-2004 03:20									#3
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Sort of esoteric, but: "Psychotic Wonder Building" (named after one of Aeson's thread).

The goal would be to hard build as many Great Wonders as possible yourself. Sort of like in Mesopotamia, but with the standard game and without VPs.


Dominae

	17-04-2004 03:48									#4
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I would like to see a course with the Sumerians, to study the following:

• Agricultural civ without a fresh water start: how will you overcome it? Can you make the most of the food increase after you exit Despotism?
  
• The Enkidu Warrior in SP. Is it too powerful?
  

	17-04-2004 03:58									#5
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I should finish 502 this weekend so I'll be ready

1) I always push for an idea that loses out to another one. So I'll vote for Total War Forever since I'd never play that.

2) Not me. I takes me over a month to play a game so designing one would take 1/2 a year.

3) I always play stock because I can never keep the rule changes straight in my head

	17-04-2004 06:23									#6
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Alexman, I'm not sure your idea needs anything else - I think it could even be called The (True) Power of Agricultural.
As I said in one of the AU502 threads, I think I tried to have too many themes in 502, making it less focused on learning and more of a survey.

Either way, I'm looking forward to a new game, though I would like to see at least the Army/MilAcad and the Government Balance issues addressed, especially since one of the reasons for putting off the Army change was the potential for a fix in 1.20/1.22, which diidn't materialize.

New course! New course! Wheeeeeeeee!!!

	17-04-2004 06:52									#7
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How many of you like to play as Korea, that honourable civ with the rudely-named leader?

What about testing out the power of the Korean UU, the Hwach'a? Its only advantage over Cannon is that it doesn't need Iron....but wait, it also has lethal bombardment! How much of a tactical advantage does that provide? What if we are presented with a map with no Iron within easy reach? Our only offensive units woud be Archers and Horsemen, and the much maligned Longbowman, until Cavalry appear. Can we use these units to mount a strong enough early offensive against our defensively strong neighbours Carthage, Greece and possible Rome, to capture their Iron, or must we wait until we have Cavalry and then use our UU in large numbers to obliterate all resistance? Can we even last that long, with only Spearmen as our primary defensive unit until we get Gunpowder? Does the 3 defence value of the wonder enabled Crusaders now look more attractive? Must diplomacy be Korea's primary defensive weapon until its scientists are able to unlock the secrets of the Hwath'a and its generals can use it to unleash an Industrial age GA? Will we divert from the upper "powerhouse economy" tech branch in the Middle Ages to secure our defences with Musketmen and then beeline for the all-powerful Metallurgy/Military Tradition? Or should we take a chance and hope that our Universities will give us enough research power to get to the the Industrial age quickly, and the RNG will be kind enough to give us Nationalism as our free tech? Do we bypass the Democracy opportunity and out of military necessity push on towards Communism and take over the world? Are we North Koreans or South Koreans?

Is the Korean UU completely useless? Does it make Korea the one civ that everybody avoids? Or does it have some hidden power that most players do not yet realise? Can we turn the trait combination of Commerical/Scientific to our advantage in the meantime? Do you all turn your nose up when you read this? If so, why?

I'm also interested in Alexman's Sumerian idea, although we played an Agricultural civ in AU502 so perhaps we should have something different this time.

	18-04-2004 19:03									#8
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The past two AU courses were based around the civ traits. I think we should continue along this line, so I propose that we check a industrial civ next. Check out how the nerf helps to bring it back into line with the other traits. Maybe Carthage, or the Maya, since both have on of the new traits. If we pick the Maya we can (hopefully) resolve the issue of the javelin thrower.

	20-04-2004 04:50									#9
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Another idea:
We all arguing about resources scarcity huits builder as they can't get enough resources to construct spaceship without war. So in next course let's play the builder's way - No taking or razing AI's cities by force. Cutural flipping and propaganda are allowed. No other limits. We shall see if it is possible to launch spaceship in that way.

	21-04-2004 01:37									#10
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Combining ideas from several suggestions in this thread, how about this:

• Play as Maya without a fresh water start.
  
• Build as many Wonders as you can.
  
• Try to use the Javelin Thrower to harass the AI and/or harvest barbarian slaves, but no taking or razing AI cities.
  
• Win by spaceship
  

	21-04-2004 01:41									#11
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That would be evil, especially on Emperor+ (for us mere humans, Alexman)

The first three points are fare, but one clarification: can we take cities with other units? Or, as is suggested above, no taking AI cities FULL STOP?

	21-04-2004 02:20									#12
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For those conditions, I'd far prefer Sumeria.

Enkidu harassment sounds perfect for no taking cities. I wouldn't like to be without Religious or Scientific either.

We certainly wouldn't get a good handle on Industrious from a game like that.

	21-04-2004 02:34									#13
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What are the targets for the next game? I'd rather aim at a single one (Resource scarcity/ Power of Industriousness (sp?)/ or the javelin thrower) than lump threm all in to one game.

It makes sense to keep the aims separate, so pick one point from above, not all four.

	21-04-2004 06:22									#14
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I tend to agree with Krill. The game is starting to sound like a complicated bet ("Win while playing underwater, using only your left hand and balancing a stack of 20 dinner plates on your head.")

Remember that the point is to learn something about the game. I have no idea what we could point to as a lesson from that complicated a game.

	21-04-2004 07:09									#15
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Is it that hard to see the builder theme here?

Don't conquer cities, build as many Wonders as you can, and try to win by spaceship, to show how much the luxury shortage affects that style of play.

The fact that you are an Agricultural civ far from fresh water, and taking advantage of your UU are not artificial restrictions, and merely add interest to the early game.

	21-04-2004 08:17									#16
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If you want to determine the power of the Enkidu, then a builder theme is not the way to go IMO. It's role then is only as a deterrent, and therefore it's impossible to know without a comparison game whether it actually makes a difference (put another way, builders can do just fine with just Warriors, so what exactly does the Enkidu add?).

The Enkidu's cost was raised to 15 in an arena where early-game combat is standard. So if you want to figure out if it's too powerful in SP, you have to put it to the test in early rushes.

I think this is a good theme as it is:

quote: Don't conquer cities, build as many Wonders as you can, and try to win by spaceship, to show how much the luxury shortage affects that style of play.

Playing as the Sumerians would confuse things. How about the Portuguese?

	21-04-2004 22:43									#17
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Really? I'd have thought no conquering cities would make early warfare almost essential. If it's hard to get rid of AI cities after they've built them then the obvious solution is to slow them down before they do.

At the very least, my experience from the last offensively restricted AU game I played means that I'd invest heavily in defence (no retaking cities either!) and use war actively to try and balance the AI.

That might just be my style. I've certainly lost OCC games I think I could have won with more war.

	30-04-2004 02:46									#18
	Re: Next AU course Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Rhothaerill So...AU502 was a great course and many people have played it, but it seems to be waning in interest now.

It looks like interest in AU503 is already waning and we haven't even started yet

	30-04-2004 21:44									#19
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Yeah, I was surprised my proposal for the MilAcad didn't get more argu... er, debate, but perhaps many folks are preparing for finals/summer vacation?

	01-05-2004 12:21									#20
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But we just had our finals....the AU quiz!

Everyone seems busy at the moment. Anyway, my suggestion for trying Korea next also got a pretty lukewarm response (errr....none actually).

Any more takers for the No Tech Trading Challenge setup by Dom in the strat thread maybe?

	02-05-2004 23:26									#21
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What i would like is a game that makes the computer extremly hard but without raising the difficulty lvl or without withholding IRON.

When I make epic games i play on emp or monarch, raise their aggression levels, and don't play the overpowered civs (Mayans,Celtic)

When i play Monarch i won't make any cheesy deals.
one tech for one tech.

The deal making can't be hard coded so i suggest:

1. Premade map, 3 islands and a large land mass
2. you have your own island that will hold 7-10 cities
you have access to 2 Iron, 1 horses, 2 coal
3. Each of the land masses near you have 2 saltpeter close to the coast but not right on it.
4. Play as a race that has 2 of these: Comercial,Religious,Seafaring,Scientific,Explorer
5. Make your island far enough away to require Navagation.
6. Give the computer an abundance of resources so they can support large armies and populations. Give them different resources so they trade.
7. Raging barbarians
8. Raise the aggression levels of the other civs.


I think these 8 steps would make a monarch game fun and challengeing to all, even those that play on harder levels.

(question, is it possible to givethe computer 4 workers to start with without changing the difficulty level? If so id add that)

	03-05-2004 04:36									#22
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Following on from Aqualung's idea, and also from the 'Most Valuable Resource' poll in Civ3 General, why not a game where the only Iron is near the capital of each AI civ, and distanced from us by quite some way. The question could be answered - is Iron the hardest resource to get by without?

	03-05-2004 16:14									#23
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Following on from Aqualung's idea, and also from the 'Most Valuable Resource' poll in Civ3 General, why not a game where the only Iron is near the capital of each AI civ, and distanced from us by quite some way. The question could be answered - is Iron the hardest resource to get by without?

In my next Emperor game (coming up soon), all civs had no resources on their islands. Al were scattered on small islands around. It made a nice scramble for all those 'Paradise Islands'...

	03-05-2004 18:54									#24
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I'm warming up to a "No Tech Trading" game for the next AU course

	04-05-2004 12:36									#25
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Here's another possible thought for the next AU game: "Pillage and plunder." The idea is to destroy the growth of neighboring AIs early through pillaging. Players would have a choice of playing the Aztecs, Incas, Sumerians, or Greeks. (The Aztecs and Incas have fast-moving UUs that they can pillage with, while the Sumerians and Greeks have UUs with a major cost/power advantage over anything they can be counterattacked with.) The map would be Continents, designed to provide very little fresh water to support the use of the Agricultural trait in REXing (and no fresh water at all near the human capital).

The goals of the game would be for us to learn more about early-game pillaging tactics (something I've used exactly once in my entire Civ 3 career) and, in the process, hopefully to find out more about how the Enkidu compares with other good pillaging UUs.

	04-05-2004 12:54									#26
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Nathan,

Interesting. Make it Pangea with a few choke-points and call it EPPG (Eternal Pillage & Plunder Game).

	04-05-2004 13:51									#27
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The reason I specified Continents rather than Pangea is that on Pangea maps, players would be a lot more likely to choose the Aztecs or Incas for their UUs' speed of exploration. On a Continents map, the difference in scouting ability would be less of an issue, which would keep the focus more on how well the UUs do at pillaging.

I'm also skeptical as to whether large-scale pillaging makes sense any time other than early in the game on normal difficulty levels. (Use of armies to pillage on Deity and Sid is a somewhat different issue.) The Enkidu Warrior, Hoplite, Chasqui, and Jag all have special advantages as pillagers that are not paralleled later in the game. Further, the concept of "destroy a neighbor's REX so you have more room to REX yourself" is something specific to the early game. So I'm skeptical (to put it mildly) as to whether "eternal pillage" makes sense in any case.

Nathan

	04-05-2004 15:44									#28
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Pillaging would be more fun if you got some gold from it. Now I hardly ever do it, as I intend to capture that land anyway. But let's give it a try.

	04-05-2004 16:15									#29
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay ....early-game pillaging tactics (something I've used exactly once in my entire Civ 3 career)

Once more than me

Not a bad idea!

	04-05-2004 18:46									#30
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Nathan,

I fully agree with you, but to have a real crazy game we can set the rule that at any given time we must have 3-5 units actively pillaging another civ.
Makes another Eternal War scenario...

PS: just provoking, of course.... for the sake of, well, discussion.