18-04-2004 10:46									#31
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Herc says no as well

Complicated ideas tend to get rejected because a DG is already a hugly complex things and if we dont aply the KISS principle here it can easily spiral out of control.

	18-04-2004 11:07									#32
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Yeah, but I like hugely complicated ideas.

	18-04-2004 12:40									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Impaler[WrG] Theirs a huge contradiction going on here. If this faction alows people to "partisipate" in the game without joining any other faction (which mind you we desperatly NEED) and yet it only has one base and it can do nothing then asy such partisipation is Empty and meaningless.

No contradiction - the whole point of this 'faction' is to encourage those who would not normally join to choose and join a faction through seeing what the game is like - getting their feet wet with the game before having to be tied to a particular faction for good. I would say this is far better than to have people just not join at all for fear of being stuck with a bum faction.

And I too strongly support further development of this idea. It's the best one I've seen since the disappointing poll result on number of DG teams.

Giving Babel some kind of Council responsibility might be getting a bit much, and even a Council vote would be risky, as you would in effect be giving the more populous teams another vote (ie everyone could join Babel and therefore the faction with the most members could influence their affairs/votes). Let's run with this neat idea (designed to help people into a faction and the game, not restricting them FROM factions), and not make it OVERcomplex with internal machinations etc. Do that in your own factions.

	18-04-2004 12:51									#34
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Engaging new members is a laudable goal but it dosent require an ingame faction.

Consider how much "getting your feet wet" you actualy achive. You have 1 base, theirs no input on turn play because that would slow the game down too much, theirs no intenal or external politics (you cant very well Pact with factions and then let people join other teams). Theirs no military production or war, theirs no expantion or meaningfull reserach.

No one is going learn anything about how to play the game by being in this faction. All they get to do is open up a save and LOOK AT their nice little base in a sea of Blackness (ask the Pirates that gets borring).

My point is having a base dose not move you any closer to achiving your goals and only diminishes the game for the REAL factions.

	18-04-2004 12:56									#35
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But you are getting a MAJOR introduction to the RP that seems to drive most of the factions in this game. It is this that will supposedly drag people into the game. People voted down the idea of a DG for learning the ingame how-to-play stuff in favour of RP. That seems to be what the factions are about (ALL of them so far), so an introduction to that would be far more of an indicator of what the game will be like than one in which you get into the gameplay itself.

	18-04-2004 13:00									#36
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And AGAIN I reitersate having 1 base has nothing to do with ROLE PLAYING

	18-04-2004 13:07									#37
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For. Despite it taking a faction-slot, this idea, if properly implemented, could possibly create a new aspect of SMAC that we all have never thought possible.

The potential of playing the game in a manner not thought of by the designers is very intriguing to myself.

	18-04-2004 13:13									#38
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Franky, geton MSN.

	18-04-2004 14:38									#39
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I support this.
I ask now about the matter of rewards.
How the heck do we determine who gets council votes and ECs?

Is this the Mayor's job? It can't be majority, since the most populous faction gets a runaway.

In the Scen. Editor, I figure the best way to do this is:
1. Set all factional contact to zero
2. Set up each player with a Probe Team next to Babel. this enables them to contact Babel from the start, and provides Infiltration (on the proviso that the probe team is DESTROYED later).

3. Set up Babel as a city with all the techs, a lot of formers, most facilities and a LARGE amount of population.
If Babel has ALL techs, and infiltration from everyone...
The Planetary Datalinks becomes a little more powerful.
Its rewards start to mean something significant.
You'd have to make it so that no player could probe Babel (after the initial infiltration).

Babel then becomes a notable in-game force for its ability to pimp votes.
The CMN may offer map information by means of Babel. (RP)

Babel is starting to become a good idea.
I support it.

	18-04-2004 20:05									#40
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Just like Jamski, I don't like this idea either.

If I have anything to say about it, the Spartan Federation will not recognize the authority of the United Nations, Tower of Babel or anything similar. We are a sovereign faction, and we do not want to be forced to live by the misguided principles of other factions or be forced to follow silly council resolutions.

	18-04-2004 21:53									#41
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Would you recognise a competition that nets you 50ECs?
Think of it as a mercenary mission.

	18-04-2004 23:34									#42
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Kody, thank you for suggesting me for the Mayors position. I indeed would be interested, pending approval from the majority of the players of course. But it’s too early to start deciding that, first we need to get the whole Babel idea off the ground.

quote: Originally posted by Enigma_Nova How the heck do we determine who gets council votes and ECs? Is this the Mayor's job? It can't be majority, since the most populous faction gets a runaway.

I’d agree, it cannot be by majority vote. Nor do I think the mayor alone should get to decide on the issue. The compromise position I think should be allow those who are not members of other factions to have a say, that way you avoid having bias on the part of the voting members, seeing as those who are not affiliated with another faction ought to be disinterested.

	19-04-2004 00:03									#43
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If the Tower is supposed to be an instrument of the council, and if there is a problem with it participating, it could always be made to just abstain. If it becomes too much of a "threat" to one or a few factions, send a few units and try to destroy it. If you can get away with it--the Tower has the potential to become the perfect excuse/rationale/flashpoint for all sorts of interesting things

	19-04-2004 00:28									#44
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I have a better idea, Voltaire.

How about:
The people who are members only of Babel get to set a 'confidence' in members from other factions.

That way you can support those people who are RP with voting power, and deny such power to those who are working for their own faction only.

	19-04-2004 02:22									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Enigma_Nova I have a better idea, Voltaire. How about : The people who are members only of Babel get to set a 'confidence' in members from other factions. That way you can support those people who are RP with voting power, and deny such power to those who are working for their own faction only.

An interesting idea indeed. I like it. We will have to put all these to a vote to determined which get through.

	19-04-2004 20:57									#46
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This is a very interesting idea. I do have a tilt of my own though.

First I agree with Impaler that it isn't necessary for it to be a in game team if it is supposed to be a special faction which will not participate the game as the other teams. The reasons that some in game mechanics may be needed such as ecs for awards are not sufficient enough for me to agree it to be included as a ingame team. It certainly alters the game balance if awards are awarded to teams according to machanisms other than that of the game (eg. debates etc.). If a Olympic style competition is deemed appropriate and welcome in the game, I belive ecs can be gathered from all participating teams to generate the awards. If a faction needs in game help such as ecs or units, it can try obtain such through regular diplomatic channels with the regualer participating factions.

However, I see this idea has great potential as a non in game guild. It could be lead by a few people that are not affliated with any of the in game factions. Then other players can apply to join, and be judged based on different criteria, such as gaming skills, or roleplay standards, and be accepted into the guild. The guild can offer many services to the planet. It can serve as the library of the planet, where history iss recorded, literature is collected, human intelligent is exercised. Classes of different levels about the game play could be offered. Questions of certain gaming issue could be submitted without sensitive information and solved by the guild members as case studies. They should not have any authorities to influence the game, all their influence would be based on their reputation, because the guild will represent the wisest talents on the planet.

	19-04-2004 21:32									#47
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And on the off chance that we're powermongering bastards who have no respect for anything but our own victory?
* Enigma_Nova thinks you have too much faith in your fellow man

The reason Kody proposed an in-game faction is because without in-gamedness the forum merely becomes another place to gain postcount.

I'm all for the ECs and Votes reward idea.
It takes challenges to a new level.
I'm willing to fight on a new level - aren't you?

	19-04-2004 21:39									#48
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It doesn't have anything to do with level.

As for postcount increase, it should be a private forum that is moderated by the elders of the guild (who doesn't belong to a faction). If he is a good enough mod, we should trust that spams would be moderated. Not everybody would be able to join the guild. It would be an honor if somebody is elite enough to be included.

Requests from factions could be PMed to the elders of the guild, then the elders post the request in their forum, without revealing the sender's faction. The solution will be provided back to the sender through PM.

The history and couses will be prepared inside the guild and then published periodically in the public forum.

As for the chance that we are all warmongers who do not respect anything but our own victory, this is exactly why this guild should not be a in game faction. This way for those who do not believe in the guild, they could simply choose not to interact with it. For those who treasure the intelligence power of the guild, they can of course choose to rely upon them in time of need.

	19-04-2004 22:29									#49
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quote: Originally posted by HongHu As for postcount increase, it should be a private forum that is moderated by the elders of the guild (who doesn't belong to a faction). If he is a good enough mod, we should trust that spams would be moderated.

Private Babel forum?
That stops the spam, but kills it outright. Not enough motive to join.
In Babel, there is at least the motive of EC - which everyone is into.

Making it an elitist camp goes against the original idea, of having it an open RP forum that everyone can go to (including those who are LFG).
That's 80% of the point - a place where everyone can meet and speak the same language; a faction that is free to everyone.
It's not the Shadow Ministry, should never be the Shadow Ministry, and I am against the idea of ever turning it into the Shadow Ministry.

If you make it private, take it out of the game, and remove the spam - you'll kill it outright.
Being public was the original idea, there's plenty of support for a public thing, not many for an elitist RP camp.
Being in-game gives everyone a reason to attend and debate - you'd be surprised how the scent of money can draw people.

The ToB is an excellent idea for all of:
1. A new level of competition
2. A RP forum
3. A place for everyone to gather
4. A sanctuary of strategy and knowledge
It covers all motives for playing.
What more could you ask for?

	19-04-2004 23:14									#50
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Not sure what you are refering to by your first point, are you talking about the OCC aspect?

Point 2 and 3 can certainly be achieved through our public forum here. What's the purpose having two public forums?

Point 4 with a roleplay style is exactly what I'm suggesting.

	19-04-2004 23:47									#51
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*ahem*
The affects of making it an in-game faction with real rewards:

You get both the RPs AND the Gamers in.
They can contribute RP AND GP information.
So instead of it being an RP centre, it's a centre for everyone.

	20-04-2004 00:35									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Enigma_Nova Would you recognise a competition that nets you 50ECs? Think of it as a mercenary mission.

The problem is that Sparta and Gaia have much fewer members than Morgan or Angels. As a consequence - certainly after we meet other factions and will have to spend time on diplomacy - we're much less likely to be able to spend enough time on preparing debates etcetera, and those debates will just be free energy credits for the populous factions.
Debates in the first two or three decades before factions meet each other would be nice to keep boredom from setting in while waiting on the turn, but I don't think they will be needed later, and nor do I see the need for energy credits and an in-game faction - that's forcing all factions to participate, even if they don't want to.

quote: Originally posted by HongHu Not everybody would be able to join the guild. It would be an honor if somebody is elite enough to be included.

I have to agree with Enigma_Nova. Why do you want to create elite cliques like the Shadow Ministry and now this Babel elite forum?? Remember this is supposed to be a democracy game, and let's not repeat the mistakes of the previous ACDG.

	20-04-2004 01:10									#53
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Well if everybody is in then what is the difference from the public forum we already have? I thought one of the reasons that this would be an ingame faction is that it will have its own private forum. I was only suggesting that it could still have its own forum without being in game.

It has nothing to do with a shaddow ministry. Shaddow ministry is the backup managerial instrument of a faction that will be activated when the formal government doesn't work. (It certainly is not a mistake of the current ACDG?) This guild that I was promoting has no managerial responsibilities and rights. They are just a bunch of talents whose only property is their knowledge and wisdom. I thought that such concept exists in many games so that people should be familiar with it?

	20-04-2004 02:58									#54
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quote: Originally posted by HongHu Well if everybody is in then what is the difference from the public forum we already have?

None. I don't want there to be any difference, in-game faction or private forum.

quote: It has nothing to do with a shaddow ministry. Shaddow ministry is the backup managerial instrument of a faction that will be activated when the formal government doesn't work. (It certainly is not a mistake of the current ACDG?)

You think so? So if in your opinion some people spam too much in the Data Angel private forum you will once again create a seperate forum for a select few? In that case I do hope all people thinking of joining the Angels know what they're getting into. I get the impression that if people want to have a say in how things are run, the Spartans or Gaians will be the best faction.

	20-04-2004 03:04									#55
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Got there before me Maniac.

I hope the Data Angels know of your anti-democratic tendencies

-Jam

	20-04-2004 05:53									#56
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I think we are capable of deciding our own structures thank you.

	20-04-2004 06:05									#57
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Re Ecs for competitions and things. We could have it that each human faction playing, keeps a running tab in a forum like this or each starts of with 500ecs reserve. They could then square up in game as and when their in game resources permit and of course after they've met.

Maybe in due course we could salvage the Unity core for 500ecs each.

So one reason for Kody's proposal was winners receiving in game benefits. Here is a way to do so without having an in game faction generating ecs to distribute.

	20-04-2004 07:13									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac You think so? So if in your opinion some people spam too much in the Data Angel private forum you will once again create a seperate forum for a select few? In that case I do hope all people thinking of joining the Angels know what they're getting into.

I don't understand how this happened in the Hive. If there really was a majority against the "Shadow Ministry", couldn't they have just voted to recognize a different turnplayer? And if there was a majority in favor of the Ministry, then that makes it elitist, yes, but democratic still. Different from other majoritarian governments in appearance only, not form. So what was the problem?

	20-04-2004 08:02									#59
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The biggest problem was that it get Jamski angry, and that is one mistake you should never make.

The view was (myself included) such a private forum created an elite group that ran things, secret from everyone else, when in theory we all had the proper oppertunity to contribute to a level that he wished. Sure, in real life, this is the way (unforunately) a lot of 'democracies' get run. But, we come here to get away from real life.

But, that's in the past. I'd rather learn from that mistake and move on.

On the matter at hand: I don't see this little faction as complicating anything. Not even a private forum - I pictured an open public sub-forum (if that can be arranged). As a simple oppertunity for RP and a cute distraction from the game during between-turn lulls, it's a good idea.

	20-04-2004 17:25									#60
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Elitism was the last thing on my mind when I came up with the shadow ministry.

I remember being very tired and feeling unwell from all the effort I had sunk into the ACDG. The main thing I remember was that I was feeling sick and I wanted to get away or buffer myself from the ACDG somehow. So antisocial tendencies probably influenced the inital concept.

As for why it went ahead beyond the inital concept... It was a complicated combination of cause and effect, and it was a gamble on my part that the effects would be more positive than negative.