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Kody
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If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:35
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Just some thoughts
* A real roleplay only faction
* Peacekeepers in game (renamed Tower of Babel)
* Only allowed to build 1 city for the duration of the game
* Membership open to people that are even in other factions
* Neturality in meta-game politics
Purpose
* The city exists to generate prizes for competitions (debating/puzzles etc)
* Trusted members (not affliated with other factions) will offer strategy services for other factions if required
* provides contracted paper publishing for other factions
* The Tower of Babel will keep records of the progress of the game for new members
* It will provide a place new members can join up and later decide which faction they wish to join.
As for slowing down the game, with only one city and no diplomancy it shouldn't be a problem.
From a roleplay prespective if any of the other 4 factions as a faction decides that Babel needs to be destoryed the Babel will self destruct. This is because the very openness of Babel means that another faction can easily undermine it bringing its downfall.
....
So what comments?
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Kody
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If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:35
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The reason why I suggested this is because people were interested in roleplay, but the best they could come up with was making it compulsory. This suggestion was to encourage roleplay in a few ways. (By the way I'm currently not offering to spend anytime running the faction, so someone else needs to be interested to get this idea out of the water.)
Impaler, in response to your comment about the actual faction not being required in the game.....
An actual faction in the game with some (if somewhat limited) real resources helps to keep people together. People would not be interested in factions that only exist in name and it will disband just like many other things I've observed in the previous DG game.
Also by having a faction that can cause in game impact. Things like the debating flickered out because there was no real game incentive to participate. A single city that generates a little cash can actually offer in game prizes for competitions.
Bad Points
* Additional time taken in having another faction. Unavoidable to tell the truth. However, I imagined that since this faction is not game orientated and only 1 city you don't need a set turnplayer so first person that turns up can play the turn or possibly even the same turnplayer from the faction before Babel (the faction is pretty much open for any other team).
* Currently nobody willing to take responsibility for the faction.
Good Points
* If people decide that Babel isn't required anymore, all it requires is another faction to declare that Babel must fall and it will be out of the game. Babel will always be a small military/technologically/economically weak underdog and it will be interesting to see the diplomatic struggle in keeping the faction alive in the later game. (that's the main thing I want to see)
* Babel will be used to generate ECs or techs for in game prizes providing a real reward for winner of debates and competitions.
* Babel allows everyone a premise for interacting with other teams will help with some of the early day boredom. Babel could be the early game diplomatic minefield such as Voltaire is looking for since basically there will be members from all the factions.
* It'll encourage roleplay that is related to the ACDG between factions. Roleplay that isn't tied to a player's main chosen faction. This is important as players tend to hold back in roleplaying with other factions due to prevent leaking of information. Babel will provide a middle ground that people can interact on without touching sensitive information.
* One of Babel's tasks will be gathering new members, it will allow new players the opportunity to join the game without committing to a certain faction. Or a place to go if a faction is eliminated or if a member has a problem with the management.
* If one faction is seriously lacking in roleplay or strategy it is hoped that trusted and unaffiliated members of Babel will be able help that faction out. Hopefully also helping that faction, by nudging a few new people towards the faction that is suffering membership problems.
__________________________________________________
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This was just my solution for several of the roleplay and a few of the metagame problems that I observed in the last ACDG. In no way should this be taken as a fixed solution, just me throwing out ideas and you can do with them what you will.
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Kody
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If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:35
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That's a good point MrWhereItsAt. It's hoped it will partially offset by allowing people to have dual membership of Babel and their main faction. It will draw people's time away from other factions neverless. Although in my ideal running of the faction I see much of that time will be spent improving the ACDG overall by attracting new members to the game as a whole, helping other factions and encourging roleplay during the slow times.
If I had the time to assist I reckon I could promise that it would be worthwhile, that it wouldn't slow the game down and it would help activity during the slow times. Then again I don't have the time to forum camp for more than half the day the way I did for the first ACDG. Really how successfully Babel would achieve the goals I've outlined depends whether there is someone interested in running mainly roleplay faction and who is able to organise to some degree. Maybe there's someone else out there who wants roleplay while avoiding the whole competitive aspect of the ACDG.
PS: I also think that news updates for the http://apolyton.com/smac/ and DG news should be submitted.
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Enigma_Nova
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It depends on what you'll do with the terrain.
Obviously that tower has to stand somewhere, and if it's next to my own city, you've got a problem.
Place it so that it does not steal land from others, or get in the way of an attack, and you've got a deal.
The RP/spam can be done in its forum; I think it is a decent idea.
Having prizes for debates and trivia would be an unbalancing boost to [insert my faction here], but aside from that it is okay.
What about MWs? Is it possible that planet itself is going to wind up hating the ToB?
Planetary council - lower sea levels?
What if some sneaky devil decides to probe the ToB?
Gotta consider that.
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Kody
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If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:35
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The way I see it is while this Babel will be different from most other factions in that it will have to rely mainly on diplomancy for it's own defence.
Planet is fairly easy to defend against, so that won't be a problem. Against the AI any half decent player can hold out for a couple of turns assuming the tower starts on a small island. If the Tower does get into serious trouble against the AI I guess it will have to start begging for military support from human factions. Against human factions it will have to rely on generating goodwill. Basically motivation for the faction to be actively keeping itself alive rather than sitting there like a bloated duck with a forcefield around itself.
Giving huge defence bonuses to keep the faction alive would just make it all less interesting, just because a faction goals are different doesn't mean it doesn't have to eke it's place in the world just like every other faction.
If Babel does get destoried the roleplay goes that the people of Babel scattered to the winds, but still tried their best to achieve the original goals (in relation to serving the game) in exile. I always felt the brightest sparks were always the ones that were most easily extingushed.
As for just having a forum without the in game faction.... well I admit having a faction changes game dynamics, but people rarely commit to things that are intangible and I had trouble seeing it happen without something to help bind all the things together. If others think it'll last past a week let alone month as an intangible thing then maybe it might work.
Last edited by Kody on 18-04-2004 at 00:30
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Voltaire
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Calgary, Alberta
Aug 2001
time: 22:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamski
BIG HUGE THUMBS DOWN.
This is just another complication, and I don't want it.
Slows game down
May help undeserving factions, just because they made nice posts, not because they have mastered SMAC
SLOWS GAME DOWN.
Takes up space on the map.
Open to exploits
WILL cause arguments.
I will call for the self destruction option every tuen if this is implemented. The Bad outweighs the Good tenfold.
-Jam |
Any decrease in game expediancy would be insegnificant given the fact that it is only one base with which the people participating in this would have to deal with. Furthermore, I think it a fair and just price to pay so that everyone can enjoy themselves. Some people might not be interesting in joining the other factions, this gives them an oppertunity to participate in the ACDG without having to commit themselves as such.
That it takes up space on the map? It can be put off out of the way of the other factions. Furthermore there is plenty of space on the map, space that goes unused even at this stage of the game. I don't consider it a valid objection.
What exploits?
What if it does cause dissagreement? That is the sort of thing that makes games interesting, in fact I consider it a positive aspect if it does dissagreement, since out of disagreements arise politics.
Last edited by Voltaire on 18-04-2004 at 03:59
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Kody
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If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:35
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Voltaire, the faction has no leader *wink wink* so technically whoever the leader is will be able to decide. Although it needs to be setup that the majority of others in the game feel it's an assest. The other teams do have some control over the exsistance of the faction, so try and do your own thing completely and suddenly there may be a self destruct order from one of the other human factions.
Now everyone is touching on things I was uncertain about when thinking about Babel.
Internal politics I think would be everyone that has membership so even people that also have membership in other factions. That means that the factions within a factions thing people were talking out would be possible in Babel and wouldn't be taking away from each team.
Using Babel as an embodiment of the planetary council might be an idea, but I'm not sure about Babel running peace keeping forces as it would make the turns complex and slow down the game in a way several factions might object to.
Also if it is used as an embodiment of the planetary council then under the rules I stated earlier it would be likely that the first faction that has ruling against them may decide to destory the planetary council by telling Babel to self destruct. Obviously if it is used as a planetary council then it may have to change that self destruct to majority faction vote and a minority may have to take military action to destroy Babel.
quote:
The faction would have to be completely isolationist, yes? No units outside of its own territorial boundaries? |
That would definitately keep the game speed up.
quote:
Like an OCC game within the ACDG itself - interesting |
Yep but unlike an OCC it requires real diplomancy. Gameplay wise I don't see Babel winning, but I see alot of fun in players trying to keep the faction alive as long as possible.
For example the Peace in this game down to their last base, you had to respect them for their will to survive. While the destruction of Peace meant very little gameplay wise there was alot of manveouring diplomatically and in the game to keep them alive(and for the cycon to destory them).
Okay there's the truth in where I got the inital idea from...
quote:
Slows game down
May help undeserving factions, just because they made nice posts, not because they have mastered SMAC
SLOWS GAME DOWN.
Takes up space on the map.
Open to exploits
WILL cause arguments.
I will call for the self destruction option every tuen if this is implemented. The Bad outweighs the Good tenfold.
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Kindof funnny, we've switch roles Jamski. You're concentrating gameplay and I'm thinking roleplay.
Game time is an issue I agree, that's why I've talked about ways to reduce the time it takes for turns. Sort of reminds me of Buster coming in at the last minute talking about a faction concentrating on gameplay... only in this case it's roleplay.
Gameplay isn't the only way factions contribute, strong roleplay livens this place up (you're the one that made me decide that during the last ACDG  ). Why shouldn't roleplay be rewarded...
Yes it takes up space on the map, but only 1 city. Like voltaire said there's plenty of space on the map.
The faction will be no more open to game expolits than any other faction assuming that unfair bonuses are not given to the faction. This is part of the reason why I rejected the idea of defence bonuses earlier.
"WILL cause arguments." and also will help the players of different factions get together too. One problem with this current game is the only thing to talk about is your own faction. With Babel will provide a conversation topic other than just asking for drinks at the rec commons.
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Kody
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If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:35
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quote:
http://www.ldolphin.org/babel.html
"Now the whole earth had one language and few words. And as men migrated from the east, they found a plain in the land of Shinar and settled there. And they said to one another, 'Come, let us make bricks, and burn them thoroughly.' And they had brick for stone, and bitumen for mortar. Then they said, 'Come, let us build ourselves a city, and a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.' And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the sons of men had built. And the LORD said, 'Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language; and this is only the beginning of what they will do; and nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them. Come, let us go down, and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.' So the LORD scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth, and they left off building the city.' Therefore its name was called Babel, because there the LORD confused the language of all the earth; and from there the LORD scattered them abroad over the face of all the earth." (Genesis 11:1-9)
"Babel" is composed of two words, "baa" meaning "gate" and "el," "god." Hence, "the gate of god." A related word in Hebrew, "balal" means "confusion."
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I chose the name Babel very carefully remembering the original story of the human city Babel. The way I see it can be a place where people can work together and strive for something greater than what they can achieve alone. Just like in the story when Babel is destoried people will nolonger be able to communicate the way they used to and will spread back into their respective factions.
And I figure some of you out there would be itching to play at being god and bring it's downfall. Ahh naming the city Babel.... sort of like the warm fuzzy feeling you get when you name your flagship Titanitic then seeing how long you can keep it afloat.
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Comrade Tassadar
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Just one thing:
If the polls say that people don't support it, yet this thread clearly shows most people do support it, then perhaps the polls were wrong?
Kody: Come online! I need help
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Kody
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If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:35
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Okay,
I don't actually agree with your opinions on how things work, but I agree with you this probably won't get off the ground. However, for mostly different reasons than what you've stated.
You're also making the assumption I'm driving this, which I'm not. Since I still have no plans of participation in the ACDG. This is very much me putting ideas out on how to make the game more interesting. If you look back I've been doing quietly in a post here or there. Just this is the first time I've suggested something completely off the mark that requires serious explanation.
As for the poll results I thought the result was 2 or 3 DG teams and there appears to be 4 already.....
I'm not trying to violate poll results, if I was doing that I would have quietly contacted a few people formed a core group and announced a 5th faction. I probably could have gotten away with it too if I tried. Instead I've said here's the idea... what comments.
Edit:
I believe some of the roleplayers are dissatisifed with aspects of the DG. The question really is how can it be improved. To tell the truth a seperate forum without any game interaction is what I considered first. However, hard I tried I couldn't figure out how it would hold itself together. What I kept coming back to is it would be like the police state game, lots of inital activity and then a deserted forum after a few weeks. So what I figured there needs to be a little real competitive aspect, eg keeping the faction alive and prizes which would tempt players from other factions to roleplay and actually help their faction in game.
There's another option that I believe would go down even worse than this one. Requiring other factions to commit resources to the roleplay faction that will be redistributed as prizes or used to influence global politics. Needless to say most teams will complain loudly and likely drop out.
What would really make me happy is if people stating what they see as wrong, then changing it and then saying how it could work.
Last edited by Kody on 18-04-2004 at 09:02
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Googlie
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Commanding Officer, CRYPTEIA
Apr 1999
time: 21:35
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So make it a "human-controlled" AI faction, but with those suggested limitations
(and maybe give it the Universal Translator SP):
quote:
##The Universal Translator
#PROJECT20
And the Lord said, "Behold, the people is one, and
they have all one language; and this they begin to do:
and now nothing will be restrained from them, which
they have imagined to do. Go to, let us go down, and
there confound their language, that they may not
understand one another's speech."
^
^ -- The Conclave Bible,
^ Datalinks
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Kody
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If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:35
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Just an note I'm approaching this whole issue as a problem to be solved not as an personal empire that I'm building for myself to lead as some people may have mistaken.
quote:
If this faction alows people to "partisipate" in the game without joining any other faction (which mind you we desperatly NEED) and yet it only has one base and it can do nothing then asy such partisipation is Empty and meaningless. Conversly if their IS any meaningfull play by this faction then it has become the 5th faction in the game and this WAS VOTED DOWN in the polls. Any possible benifit a person could gain from joining a truely "dose nothing" faction could be gained by an out of game group, at the same time running a base in game would consume time and energy better spent on the supposed goals of this group.
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I've been thinking hard on what you said... and I conceed I really don't know how it will play out. I was hoping maybe only 1 or 2 players in Babel that's not affliated with any other faction, with the majority of the membership actually those with dual membership.
I imagined Babel could be like training wheels on a kid's bike. New members sign up and they learn the ropes before getting recuited into a proper faction. While recuiting for the Hive I heard the common story people were confused about which faction to join and the rule they couldn't change factions later. So instead they just sat on the sidelines. While people could possibly stay just in Babel I hope that there will be enough pressure to get them to join up with a proper faction.
Members that have trouble with their faction's management can help out in Babel, and I hoped the more focused (because it draws a little bit from all the other factions) and more open roleplay of Babel (because it doesn't have secrets) will perk interest and bring more people in.
However, I don't know it would turn out that way, what I stated was my original guess.
I guess details on who would be required to run the faction. The way I see things there only need to be one person that can't join a 2nd faction (the mayor of Babel).
* Mayor (required) - A netural party that runs politics, and basic internal stuff. The only person really required that can't be in a 2nd faction. Voltaire seems interested in this job and he didn't seem too interested in any of the exisiting factions.
* Turnplayer (required) - doesn't matter who as the intent is to keep it all simple, could possibly even be the same turnplayer as the previous faction meaning there will be very little delay with Babel's turns.
* Chronicler (maybe) - again doesn't matter who, just someone interested in keeping a record of the game
* Organisers for events (required) - people that organise debates and competitions. I expect greed will draw the people from other factions to organise things. Mayor says 50 ECs has been allocated to another event, and roleplayers in other factions will probably try and organise something.
* Recuiter (maybe) - someone that talks to the new members and goes over the ropes, you'll be surprised how much this is neglected. Just requires someone semi-netural towards all factions. So can possibly be someone with dual citizenship.
Strategy interested people won't stick around in Babel for long, I fully expect they'll wander off to one of the other factions to the competative aspect.
quote:
I support the idea of having single player controled factions in the game but only if they actualy are playing to win. If not they are just a waste of space and reduce the fun of other factions by giving us even few competive factions in the game (they would be even less channelging to play with then an AI)
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That is an issue as you basically lose one AI faction that's competting against you. Not sure how to solve that. Possibly make the remaining AI stronger?
Umm anyway I think that just about wraps up everything I can say about this idea. Yeah I know there are alot of holes, and no I probably don't know the answer.
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Kody
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If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:35
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Actually looking back it looks more like 2 versus 2. Voltaire/OctavianX for and Impaler/Jamski against. There are several people that are interested in seeing where this goes, but seem to know as well it won't take off and so haven't bothered to seriously answer (plus this was an idea thread, not a poll).
*whispers to Impaler* To tell the truth the main reason I didn't think it had a hope to start off with is because the ACDG always rejects complicated ideas.
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17-04-2004 12:31
Could it also be, I don` know, manifestation of Planetary Council itself, in a way that their members, who are also memebers of other factions could negotiate diplomatic deals.
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