19-04-2004 23:43									#1
	No RR bonus on Forest squares Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Is it just me or is there a bug in 1.22 where RR in Forest only generates 2 Shields rather than 3? For all other terrain types, RR generates +50% Shields.

I had C3 version 1.29f installed, then installed C3C and updated to patch 1.15, then patch 1.20 and finally installed the FULL version of 1.22. Please don't tell me I have to re-install . . .

	20-04-2004 00:07									#2
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RR only enhance the shield/food of mines/farms improvements. They do not affect forests.

	20-04-2004 04:15									#3
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Well, that doesn't make sense. Why not forests as well as mines/farms? They do ship logs by rail as well.

	20-04-2004 04:30									#4
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If RRed forests gave +1 shield then that would make them equivalent to mined hills, giving cities in the middle of no where a huge shield possibility (think flood plains plus a bunch of instant 3-shield tiles).

	20-04-2004 04:35									#5
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Yes . . . increased shield production but at the cost of food. You can have these high shield production cities but not very big in population size - an industrial city like Detroit or Pittsburgh.

I kinda miss the concept of being able to ship food between cities that we had in Civ2. Kinda helped out those bitty towns on the outskirts of nowhere.

	20-04-2004 04:42									#6
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yea.. that was awesome!

quote: I kinda miss the concept of being able to ship food between cities that we had in Civ2

i really wish we had something like supply crawlers that alpha centauri has.

Perhaps workers should be able to "work" a distant tile and send the 'goods' back home, at the cost of one gold per turn (unit support cost).

	20-04-2004 05:01									#7
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This is not a 1.22 issue. This has always been the case, you've just never noticed

Yes, once RR's arrive, Forests become sub-optimal. End of story.

	20-04-2004 06:10									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Aqualung71 Yes, once RR's arrive, Forests become sub-optimal.

Funny, that's just like how it happened in real life...RRs came, and now forests aren't quite as common as they were...

Perhaps to truly show realism, a forest gives 20 shields if connected by a RR and is cut down? But that is a minor point, as most forests are usually cut down by then anyways.

	20-04-2004 08:15									#9
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quote: Funny, that's just like how it happened in real life...RRs came, and now forests aren't quite as common as they were...

Actually, forests have never been particularly useful. TREES have been useful, but always exploited to the point of deforestation.

	20-04-2004 08:39									#10
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The problem is that forests get chopped way too early. I think Firaxis went the wrong way when they reduced to chopping time -- they should have increased it and increased the bounty to 20. With Rhye's of Civilization mod the chopping time is increased to FORTY (I then increased the shields to 20).

	20-04-2004 20:11									#11
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You know, there is such a thing as sustainable forestry. The concept is quite simple - regrow trees as fast as you harvest them. I know that you can sort of do that in Civ by replanting trees after they've been chopped. However that can get very tedious as you have to manually give the command to replant after chopping.

It would be nice, if they could make an auto-command to chop-replant-chop-replant ad infinitum. That would make use of those odd squares not within city limits or the bleak tundra areas. Yeah, that's right - make use of those slaves! Send them to the frigid boonies, harvesting and planting trees for your hungry war machine!

	20-04-2004 20:30									#12
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Hm. Since the advent of railroads, forest coverage has been rising in Sweden. Clearly we're doing something wrong.

zyelmyrada: You're aware that since one of the Vanilla patches, chopping down a replanted forest does not yield any shields?

	20-04-2004 20:46									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Hm. Since the advent of railroads, forest coverage has been rising in Sweden. Clearly we're doing something wrong. zyelmyrada: You're aware that since one of the Vanilla patches, chopping down a replanted forest does not yield any shields?

.Oh really!!! Boy, do I feel stupid!! So that's why chopping those trees time and again had no effect. Well, why is that?

If you replant trees and chop them down, it should make sense that you can get production from that. After all, you are reusing a resource and have to expend man-hours to get it. After all, the game allows you to extract minerals from mined hillsides forever! Not to mention leeching food from the plains for countless generations.

	20-04-2004 20:55									#14
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It was considered an exploit I think

	20-04-2004 21:03									#15
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quote: Originally posted by zyelmyrada After all, the game allows you to extract minerals from mined hillsides forever! Not to mention leeching food from the plains for countless generations.

That's where the two shields a turn comes in.

	20-04-2004 22:12									#16
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exploit? how is it an exploit? If you invest your time and workers into working that square, why shouldn't you be rewarded?

The only exploit i can see is doing it multiple times in one turn. YOu know, like having 20 workers, you start out with planting (2 workers), then you cut it (2 workers), then do the whole thing 5 more times.

So why not limit it to just one harvest per turn? WHy take out such an awesome feature? I say make it an option in the editor!

	20-04-2004 22:15									#17
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Because later in the game you have a ton of Workers with nothing to do but clean up pollution, and you can essentially build huge amounts of improvements essentailly for free with enough idle Workers.

	20-04-2004 22:21									#18
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I agree with Matt. That's my point exactly. If you can plant and harvest once per turn, that would be a fair restriction. Remember, you have to expend the workers to make this work once per turn.

I know what you mean when you say that in the later game you have all these workers with nothing to do but clean up pollution. So, is it better to pay them to sit about idly - is this the Civ equivalent of welfare recipients?

	21-04-2004 02:11									#19
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Even once a turn would be too much to be realistic. 20 turns between cuts yiedling shields on a given tile would be realistic.

	21-04-2004 02:44									#20
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to expand on the above point, .... forests don't grow over night, so perhaps a 5 turn minimum would be required to grow it no matter how many workers work that tile.

BUt to take the damn feature out is just stupid - it was the closest thing we had to supply crawlers ala Alpha centauri

	21-04-2004 03:57									#21
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Crawlers were massively advantageous to the human over the AI, and MM-intensive. I'm glad they're gone.

	21-04-2004 07:13									#22
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I have to admit that's not a bad reality sort of idea about increasing the chop yield on forests with RRs, but ultimately, by the time you have RRs an extra ten shields is not going to be all that much help. CEs come soon after, so even the most distant of cities would be better off clearing and irrigating quickly to support those loss-free shields.

	21-04-2004 08:11									#23
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I think the 2 shields/turn IS representative of sustainable forestry, whereas clearing the tile would represent completely clearcutting the forest, representing what we do when, say, putting in farms or housing developments. The game was made to represent the real world, and in the real world we can use sustainable forestry, giving a fair amount of industry, or we can clear cut it, with a sizeable industry income while losing the forest, to be replaced with farms. It's a strategy game, but it's also based loosely on the real world too.

	21-04-2004 08:27									#24
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And replanting takes quite a while before the forest returns to a similar state to pre-clearing, so outright disallowing it is feasible for RL reasons as well as the gameplay balance ones.

	21-04-2004 19:33									#25
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quote: Originally posted by MattPilot exploit? how is it an exploit? If you invest your time and workers into working that square, why shouldn't you be rewarded? The only exploit i can see is doing it multiple times in one turn. YOu know, like having 20 workers, you start out with planting (2 workers), then you cut it (2 workers), then do the whole thing 5 more times. So why not limit it to just one harvest per turn? WHy take out such an awesome feature? I say make it an option in the editor!

Believe me it was a big exploit, not to mention a tiresome one. Out of the box corruption was worse, and by far the most efficient strategy for corrupt cities (which were all but the core) was to replant and chop down forests ad infinitum with as many workers as you could possibly afford.

	22-04-2004 01:35									#26
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I usually have several cities in late industrial era & modern era which 10 shields more would be extremely useful because of criticial points.

quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt I have to admit that's not a bad reality sort of idea about increasing the chop yield on forests with RRs, but ultimately, by the time you have RRs an extra ten shields is not going to be all that much help. CEs come soon after, so even the most distant of cities would be better off clearing and irrigating quickly to support those loss-free shields.

	22-04-2004 02:03									#27
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Well you can still plant and harvest to get shields, just not multiple times in one game on the same tile. I often do use it when the extra shields are necessary to make a build neat.

	22-04-2004 04:01									#28
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I prefer my builds on the rocks.

	22-04-2004 22:39									#29
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I agree it is sad railroaded forests don't bring any extra yield. It makes forests suboptimal past RR, and as such, clearing forests is ALWAYS preferrable to keeping one.

It's sad because Civ3 is about taking decisions, which have pros and cons. Razing forests have no cons, it is an absolute no-brainer (even the wasted time is not a con, since clearing a forest is very short)

	22-04-2004 22:48									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I agree it is sad railroaded forests don't bring any extra yield. It makes forests suboptimal past RR, and as such, clearing forests is ALWAYS preferrable to keeping one.

Tundra?

Also I'd add that the timing matters, so there are still decisions.