21-04-2004 04:19									#1
	Turn 28, 2670bc Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Orders from the Ministers:

ALL MINISTERS, please feel free to edit this post to enter in your orders.


Pre-Turn Actions



Military Orders
Offical SMC Thread: Exploration and Defence

1 Anthea the Blonde: North
2 Ares' Boys: Stay Foritied.
3 Grog: North
4 Road Kill Warriors: SE
5 Diomedes: Stay Foritied.


Worker Orders
Roads R Us is working on a road


City Orders
No change - GK



Diplomacy To Be Completed


Any Other Things To Be Done

Last edited by Inverse Icarus on 22-04-2004 at 03:37

	22-04-2004 01:16									#2
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Some thoughts about micromanagement:

Curently we have 14 food in the granary and 14 shields accumulated for the settler. If we continue with the surplus of 2 food and 7 shields we will complete the settler after 3 turns when our capitol will grow in size too. But we will waste 5 shields this way.

Two possibilities:
1) make the capitol produce 8 shields - move the wf from the sugar to the forest tile. the settler will be completed after two turns and the city will grow after 4 turns. We will loose 2 bakers for the IW too but we will use our production to 100%.

2) Move the wf from the forest to a shielded grassland near the river. The settler will be completed after 3 turns and we will loose only 3 shields. But the city will grow one turn earlier and we can use the additional population unit for science (+3 bakers) or taxman (+2 gold).

	22-04-2004 06:26									#3
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The save is here, but no one has commented about ormund's suggestions above.

Does anyone feel that we should further adjust our WF? Orders posted in this thread are to keep them "as is".

--Togas

	22-04-2004 06:33									#4
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Just reviewed it ... we should have made the changes LAST turn, to be more efficient.

This turn, I opened up the save to discover that we have 16 food stored up and have 21 shields stored up.

We are making 2fpt, 7spt, 10tpt.

We're going to waste 5 shields when we build the settler (actually 1-2 more bonus shields from the growth, too). I'll adjust the WF to ... 3fpt, 6spt, and 11tpt, which will waste 3 shields, 1 food, but will at least give us 2 extra trade during this short period.

There was no way to go to 4fpt, and no way to get more than 11tpt.

--Togas

Last edited by Togas on 22-04-2004 at 06:45

	22-04-2004 06:40									#5
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Turn Results from 2670bc

Save played in chat at 1:36am GMT using posted orders while Arnelos and E_T were idling about.

RESULTS IN ORDER

Roadkill moves SE (3)

Anthea moves N (8)

Grog moves N (8)

worker is frozen, but the road is done.

WF in APOLYTON adjusted to work: wines, cattle, sugar, and newly roaded bonus grassland.

3fpt, 6spt, 11tpt

Growth and Settler still in 2 turns.

ISSUES OF NOTE

Still not CDG units sighted, they must have moved their scouting warrior north.

There's a lot of land to our north, and I'd be willing to bet that we'll find another civ up there.

We are #3 in EVERY meaningful category.

PAL, GWT, and BAT are all size 3.

We are STRONG to CDG.

--Togas

	22-04-2004 06:43									#6
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Here are the changes performed to Apolyton:

	22-04-2004 07:38									#9
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quote: Originally posted by ormuzd Some thoughts about micromanagement: Curently we have 14 food in the granary and 14 shields accumulated for the settler. If we continue with the surplus of 2 food and 7 shields we will complete the settler after 3 turns when our capitol will grow in size too. But we will waste 5 shields this way. Two possibilities: 1) make the capitol produce 8 shields - move the wf from the sugar to the forest tile. the settler will be completed after two turns and the city will grow after 4 turns. We will loose 2 bakers for the IW too but we will use our production to 100%. 2) Move the wf from the forest to a shielded grassland near the river. The settler will be completed after 3 turns and we will loose only 3 shields. But the city will grow one turn earlier and we can use the additional population unit for science (+3 bakers) or taxman (+2 gold).

I don't know what GK had planned, but I can tell you, that it's very hard to completely balance Growth over time,.Food Balance & Sheild balance for a city. A lot of times, you have to pick what is best, over the long run and make a sacrifice on something else.

One thing that you need to realize is this, When the turn open, each city is gone to, one at a time.
- The Food is first calculated and added (or subracted) from the Food Box.
- If the Food box is filled (or emptied), then the cities Pop is adjusted to reflect that Growth (or shrinkage). The New Worker goes to work the NEXT DEFAULT location (can be adjusted with Govenor settings AND/OR by current WF settings).
- Then the Sheilds are counted and added to the current built. If enough, then the build is completed.

So, sometimes, it might SEEM that a build is going to take X amount of time, because of the CURRENT SPT, but then that is in a static growth enviroment. With growth AND proper WF management, you can get that build done much faster.

Now, as to the sacrifices and efficiencies. Sometimes, you have to work to get the most from your food balance. Sometimes, you have to get the most from your production capabilities. Sometimes, you can plot a course that gets the most out of both. The thing is, when you chose one or the other, you sometimes have to sacrifice the one that your not as concerned with. Like for now, food & Growth are very much so a key item, so as long as the growth rate is maintained, your going to waste sheilds. Take it from me (because I know), because these are only things that you can try to get as best as possible, over the time frame of not just this build, but the next 20 to 30 turns. It can be very hard, trying to get things as effeicient as possible and still make your build and growth do what you want it to do.

I hope that makes things a bit clearer.

E_T

	22-04-2004 09:14									#10
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Just to note, we have now lost our oppertunity to capture the CDG settler.

How much are we going to sacrifice for these guys?

	22-04-2004 10:17									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Donegeal Just to note, we have now lost our oppertunity to capture the CDG settler. How much are we going to sacrifice for these guys?

How much are we going to save, whith our trade-agreement with CDG?

	22-04-2004 10:45									#12
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Hey... This is a SURVIVAL game. Hell, this entire tech deal may be OUR grave.

CDG wants to get to Invention as fast as they can so they can get their UU, the Bezerker. This tech deal, and any others, is a strong move in that direction.

Once they get to Invention and the Bezerker, How are we susposed to stop them if they wanted to take us out? With our Hoplites? 3 Defense units vs. 6 Attack? Thats a loosing situation.

So, in the end, we save nothing and dig our own grave in the process.

	22-04-2004 21:09									#13
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Beating up on a weak team by signing a NAP with them and breaking it just a few turns later would make us the most hated team in this tourney, and would make anything GCA ever said about us stick to us forever. We would go into the second (and most important) game as treacherous backstabbing jerks ... that is if we get there, as what team in their right mind would work with us in THIS game ... and we would have killed our best potential ally (CDG) to get there.

Sharing tech with CDG was the best thing we could have done, as it gives us a free tech we wouldn't have ordinarily had (CDG was rushing to Philo, not us) and it keeps CDG passive and friendly during our early REX phase. Gives us time to get to that ivory and build several cities with our early granary.

CDG is not known for their domestic planning nor for great military skill. They're a younger group of guys playing for fun. When the times comes to take them out, we'll be able to handle them.

But I'd prefer to pick that time and hit them with an appropriate force that will ensure our victory. Taking a settler may mean that we cripple them early, but if we don't move in for the kill early (and we can't), they'll still grow, and they'll exist SOLELY to destroy us.

I don't want that sort of heat in the beginning when we should be expanding and protecting our GA. I also don't want the very serious rep hit that comes with this sort of betrayal.

--Togas

	22-04-2004 21:48									#14
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Ah... we shoulda never signed the damn thing to begin with....

	22-04-2004 21:50									#15
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Togas is right. It was a team decision to sign the NAP and cooperate with CDG for the time being. That binds us to the point that if we acted treacherously by breaking our NAP that we signed we would shoot ourselves in the foot diplomatically for the rest of this game and any beyond that.

And it wouldn't be for much gain. Yes we'd cripple them a bit, but we can't take them out right now anyway without a lot of luck. We need to build up and let our natural abilities work for us. We know we have the ability to completely outstrip almost every other team in planning and execution...and we have good land to use this time. We build up, and then when the time is right we'll strike and take them out. The only thing that will stop that is if we decide to gang up on another civ instead.

	22-04-2004 22:01									#16
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I'm sorry for the delayed suggestions. I can't follow regularly the game and I didn't realize the save I have is already played. I'll try to pay more attention next time

	22-04-2004 22:07									#17
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quote: Originally posted by ormuzd I'm sorry for the delayed suggestions. I can't follow regularly the game and I didn't realize the save I have is already played. I'll try to pay more attention next time

Actually ormuzd, feel free to post any suggestions you have at any time. I haven't been paying too much attention to the save the past few turns either unfortunately (really, really busy) and I'm supposed to be a deputy minister.

Seriously though, if anyone has any suggestions, whether they are used or not, please feel free to post them or direct our attention to them in any way. The consuls and ministers can't notice everything all the time.

	23-04-2004 04:01									#18
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I remember Donegeal calling for GoW to be more aggressive. He played a turn when GF was unavailable, and the first thing he did was to send our exploring warrior into ND territory.

He almost ruined what turned out to be an extraordinary beneficial alliance.

Thats where he got the nickname Mad King Donegeal within the GoW forum.



Don