21-04-2004 11:24									#61
	Got spare money?

throw him to the lions

	21-04-2004 11:49									#62
	Re: Why God??!! Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Black Knight84 Science is great, and it has alot of stuff going for it. I mean I'm glad I'm living on this side of the scientific revolution! I just thought I would point out that people would probably have to get more faith to believe in there being NO God then people who believe there is a God. Science can't answer questions of Philosophy. Science attempts to answer the question, "How". It is an amazing fluke, that the universe was created? Or, God created the Universe? You would have more of a chance taking a lego man and his house all broken up, putting it all in a bag and shaking it until all the pieces fit together then you would have of the first life cells being created in the mud by chance. Indeed, if the 'dials' of the universe were set even a millifraction lower it would be a cold desolate place with no life whatsoever! Science is great for explaining 'how': the big bang theory, evolution etc. When we look at science and what it has done we can realise that we haven't even scratched the tip of the iceberg. If evolution was proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is true tomorrow then the existence of God would be no less, as we would have just discovered how we were created (concerning the book of Genesis I will come back to it) Human Philosophy attempts to answer "why" and to my mind, can be at times extremely confusing and I wonder if the Philosophers really had much of an understanding. Bakunin and Nietzche despised God and Christians for a good reason in that due to Sin even Christians screw up..big time. You look at the crusades, the middle ages and even today's 'tele-evangelists' promoting this 'prosperity gospel'. Yes ladies and gentlemen humanity is great at distorting everything because we ourselves are distorted beings. It is a sad fact that no religion seems to take this into account apart from Christianity. The Bible (when read in context and there are people who really try to understand what the Bible is saying and not what we want it to say). It doesn't take a genius to look around and see how messed up the world can be, so I must ask, if there is a God who is so pure and perfect. Who is too holy to look upon then how can we expect to even begin to impress him with the deeds we do?? I'm not going to start slamming people with Bible verses, as I hate just taking one liners and slamming them into the face of people, as that allows the quote to be taken out of context and mis-interpreted. I will say a few though, Romans 3:10-11 "There is no one righteous, not even one: there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God". Paul is presenting an argument that for the first two chapters sets out what God's plan with the world is and how sinful humans are, he says in Romans 2:7 he says, "for those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honour and immortality, he will give eternal life" yet later we see he says there is no one righteous. I would suggest reading the entire book of Romans and talking to a minister about it for an understanding but basically he is arguing that you can't be saved by 'works' only by 'faith in Christ'. See Romans 3:21-31. I have only touched upon some very general themes of the Christian faith however it differs from all other faiths. All other faiths believe that you can be saved by 'working your way up the ladder'. For Islam, following the five pillars of islam is essential, some of those include fasting and prayer 5 times a day. A holy pilgrimage to Mecca will pretty much guarantee you a place in heaven. In Buddhism, "YOU" must practise ways of ridding yourself of your corrupted parts in order to enter into a permanent state of ethereal bliss, in Judaism you have to follow the Old Testament Laws in order to be saved, but the fact is I can guarantee that not one jew (apart from Jesus) has followed every single one. Even "Catholicism" in it's most traditional sense put's more of a emphasis on works! Confession, attending mass, the fancy rituals-something very similar to other faiths. Please understand that God is not interested on what we 'show' on the outside, he is interested in what is in our hearts, and unfortunately Sin spews forth and the only way to negate that is to put our faith and trust in Jesus as he took the punishment we all deserve and saved us from our Sins. Now I'm not going to sit here and say that Catholics aren't Christians, there are many who are! I would argue that "Catholicism" seems to not only be based on what The Bible says but on a whole load of other literary works which contradict The Bible, thus it can become a little confusing. I would like to stress that The Bible is the only book that is the "Word of God" everything else revolves around that, if you preach something that contradicts The Bible then stop it (now I could go into the dead sea scrolls and the apocrypha but maybe someone else would like to) The fact is we are hypocrites, we say one thing, we do another. We may preach against adultery and then we go out and think lustful thoughts and go through with our actions of lust. We know it is wrong to steal and swear but we still do it, why? Because we can't help it, we are human. God knows this, that is why we have a chance of being saved. As a Christian we are saved in faith through Christ but as Paul says in Romans chapter 3:31 "Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law". Why? Because the law makes us conscious of our sin and it helps us grow and attempt to live the way Christ did.. of course I'm not saying that we can't eat meat on fridays because that is a ritual that no longer needs to be done (sure you can do it if you feel the need but you don't earn brownie points). In fact we don't earn brownie points with God by observing any of the law, but we do it as Christians because we want to respond to the Grace God has given us (read Colossians). By putting Jesus into the centre of your life and accepting him as your saviour you are saved. What follows then is a life long transformation that ends in heaven, where we change, we try not to slander others, murder etc because that is not a part of Christ's identity and thus we need to try and work towards that~keep in mind as a Christian why would you not want to do it anyhow? Faith without works is dead, but we must always remember that the works don't save us. Other religions seem to put more emphasis on the 'works' side of it. Now: Quickly going back to Genesis: I don't think evolution poses a problem for reading genesis. Christians over the years have tried to make Genesis into a lab report of how God made the world. I think the first chapters of the Bible are written to explain WHO made us and WHY, not HOW and WHEN: I think Genesis is answering the philosophical question. There's the poetic form to the words, there's the different order of Creation in Chapter one to chapter two with each one making its own theological point. There seems to be a definite polemic to it as though it is being written specifically combat the other creationist accounts that seemed to be going on in the ancient world. So while I think it is entirely possible for the God described in The Bible to create the world in 6 days or in an instant, I'm not convinced that it must be read that way; I think the jury is still out. What Genesis does definately affirm is that you and I are not some gigantic fluke. You are not just some meaningless bag of chemicals waiting to return to the dust. You have been designed and purposely made and there is something about us that sets us apart from the rest of what has been made. Somehow we bear the stamp of God himself! Jellyfish, dogs, and rocks cannot know God but you and I can and should ackowledge the one who has made us. So why God? Why Jesus? Why not Buddha or Muhammod's God? Why the Christian God? You need to explore that one yourself. I believe in Jesus, I don't blindly believe, I think about why and I welcome anyone to challenge what I have said so in turn I can further reflect on your arguments. Here are a few final questions and statements I put forward to you? 1. The Bible is the word of God. Many people will dispute this and I look forward to hearing the arguments. Let me say this: The Old Testament and New Testament make up the Word of God. In Christianity The Old Testament is not 'that old part that no christian reads!'. It is all the word. It is amazing that such a book still survives! There are more historical manuscripts of The Bible than of Alexander the Great! The Bible was written over a period of a few thousand years by over 40 authors, of whom there is barely a connection (with the exception of a few New Testament writers). Yet over this 3000 year period this book has formed with prophecies in the Old Testament which Jesus fulfillled. It all makes sense when read, connections between the Old Testament and New Testament are all over the place. That is pretty miraculous that this has occurred. 2. The Bible is historically accurate The four gospels are eyewitness testimonies of the life of Christ. They all vary but this proves the validity! What would you believe, four books which said exactly the same thing, or four books which talked about the same thing from different perspectives, yet still unanimously agree on who Christ is and what he did. People may argue that the writers could have made it up that Jesus was God and did that for their religion, well first of all: The books were written not 90 years after the death of Christ but were written within 30 years of his death. Paul's letters began to be written only 4-5 years after his death and there were people alive then who would have contested what the books said but no one did. Another thing, who in their right mind would die for a lie? A lie that they made up? Why is it, that one moment we have a bunch of uneducated fisherman in hiding from the authorities because their cult leader has been killed, in fear for their very lives and then the next moment they are out in force preaching to the Public with massive effect that Jesus rose from the dead and it is through him we can be saved! Most of them died for that LIE... or that ..Truth? The Good news is that God has not left us floundering in the dark. The spectacular life of Jesus, demonstrates that he is from God, that he is God, he is outside the Universe. The fact that Jesus got up from being dead double underlines who he is. God. Read Hebrews and John and Daniel for more information and talk to your local minister if you are interested in finding out more information. 3. Here is an awesome book I have read, it was written by a journalist who actually started out as an atheist and then began exploring the Christian faith and converted. The book is called, "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel. It is a great read for Non-Christians and Christians alike. Anyhow I think I have said enough. Bye all. Hope this makes sense...

Whew!

Amen to that, my brother!

	21-04-2004 13:12									#63
	Put an end to popups!

I'm too lazy to read the opening post. Is it a standard DL or a modified krishnabot of some sort?

	21-04-2004 13:31									#64
	Re: Why God??!! Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Black Knight84 Science is great, and it has alot of stuff going for it. I mean I'm glad I'm living on this side of the scientific revolution! I just thought I would point out that people would probably have to get more faith to believe in there being NO God then people who believe there is a God. Science can't answer questions of Philosophy. Science attempts to answer the question, "How". It is an amazing fluke, that the universe was created? Or, God created the Universe? You would have more of a chance taking a lego man and his house all broken up, putting it all in a bag and shaking it until all the pieces fit together then you would have of the first life cells being created in the mud by chance. Indeed, if the 'dials' of the universe were set even a millifraction lower it would be a cold desolate place with no life whatsoever! Science is great for explaining 'how': the big bang theory, evolution etc. When we look at science and what it has done we can realise that we haven't even scratched the tip of the iceberg. If evolution was proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is true tomorrow then the existence of God would be no less, as we would have just discovered how we were created (concerning the book of Genesis I will come back to it) Human Philosophy attempts to answer "why" and to my mind, can be at times extremely confusing and I wonder if the Philosophers really had much of an understanding. Bakunin and Nietzche despised God and Christians for a good reason in that due to Sin even Christians screw up..big time. You look at the crusades, the middle ages and even today's 'tele-evangelists' promoting this 'prosperity gospel'. Yes ladies and gentlemen humanity is great at distorting everything because we ourselves are distorted beings. It is a sad fact that no religion seems to take this into account apart from Christianity. The Bible (when read in context and there are people who really try to understand what the Bible is saying and not what we want it to say). It doesn't take a genius to look around and see how messed up the world can be, so I must ask, if there is a God who is so pure and perfect. Who is too holy to look upon then how can we expect to even begin to impress him with the deeds we do?? I'm not going to start slamming people with Bible verses, as I hate just taking one liners and slamming them into the face of people, as that allows the quote to be taken out of context and mis-interpreted. I will say a few though, Romans 3:10-11 "There is no one righteous, not even one: there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God". Paul is presenting an argument that for the first two chapters sets out what God's plan with the world is and how sinful humans are, he says in Romans 2:7 he says, "for those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honour and immortality, he will give eternal life" yet later we see he says there is no one righteous. I would suggest reading the entire book of Romans and talking to a minister about it for an understanding but basically he is arguing that you can't be saved by 'works' only by 'faith in Christ'. See Romans 3:21-31. I have only touched upon some very general themes of the Christian faith however it differs from all other faiths. All other faiths believe that you can be saved by 'working your way up the ladder'. For Islam, following the five pillars of islam is essential, some of those include fasting and prayer 5 times a day. A holy pilgrimage to Mecca will pretty much guarantee you a place in heaven. In Buddhism, "YOU" must practise ways of ridding yourself of your corrupted parts in order to enter into a permanent state of ethereal bliss, in Judaism you have to follow the Old Testament Laws in order to be saved, but the fact is I can guarantee that not one jew (apart from Jesus) has followed every single one. Even "Catholicism" in it's most traditional sense put's more of a emphasis on works! Confession, attending mass, the fancy rituals-something very similar to other faiths. Please understand that God is not interested on what we 'show' on the outside, he is interested in what is in our hearts, and unfortunately Sin spews forth and the only way to negate that is to put our faith and trust in Jesus as he took the punishment we all deserve and saved us from our Sins. Now I'm not going to sit here and say that Catholics aren't Christians, there are many who are! I would argue that "Catholicism" seems to not only be based on what The Bible says but on a whole load of other literary works which contradict The Bible, thus it can become a little confusing. I would like to stress that The Bible is the only book that is the "Word of God" everything else revolves around that, if you preach something that contradicts The Bible then stop it (now I could go into the dead sea scrolls and the apocrypha but maybe someone else would like to) The fact is we are hypocrites, we say one thing, we do another. We may preach against adultery and then we go out and think lustful thoughts and go through with our actions of lust. We know it is wrong to steal and swear but we still do it, why? Because we can't help it, we are human. God knows this, that is why we have a chance of being saved. As a Christian we are saved in faith through Christ but as Paul says in Romans chapter 3:31 "Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law". Why? Because the law makes us conscious of our sin and it helps us grow and attempt to live the way Christ did.. of course I'm not saying that we can't eat meat on fridays because that is a ritual that no longer needs to be done (sure you can do it if you feel the need but you don't earn brownie points). In fact we don't earn brownie points with God by observing any of the law, but we do it as Christians because we want to respond to the Grace God has given us (read Colossians). By putting Jesus into the centre of your life and accepting him as your saviour you are saved. What follows then is a life long transformation that ends in heaven, where we change, we try not to slander others, murder etc because that is not a part of Christ's identity and thus we need to try and work towards that~keep in mind as a Christian why would you not want to do it anyhow? Faith without works is dead, but we must always remember that the works don't save us. Other religions seem to put more emphasis on the 'works' side of it. Now: Quickly going back to Genesis: I don't think evolution poses a problem for reading genesis. Christians over the years have tried to make Genesis into a lab report of how God made the world. I think the first chapters of the Bible are written to explain WHO made us and WHY, not HOW and WHEN: I think Genesis is answering the philosophical question. There's the poetic form to the words, there's the different order of Creation in Chapter one to chapter two with each one making its own theological point. There seems to be a definite polemic to it as though it is being written specifically combat the other creationist accounts that seemed to be going on in the ancient world. So while I think it is entirely possible for the God described in The Bible to create the world in 6 days or in an instant, I'm not convinced that it must be read that way; I think the jury is still out. What Genesis does definately affirm is that you and I are not some gigantic fluke. You are not just some meaningless bag of chemicals waiting to return to the dust. You have been designed and purposely made and there is something about us that sets us apart from the rest of what has been made. Somehow we bear the stamp of God himself! Jellyfish, dogs, and rocks cannot know God but you and I can and should ackowledge the one who has made us. So why God? Why Jesus? Why not Buddha or Muhammod's God? Why the Christian God? You need to explore that one yourself. I believe in Jesus, I don't blindly believe, I think about why and I welcome anyone to challenge what I have said so in turn I can further reflect on your arguments. Here are a few final questions and statements I put forward to you? 1. The Bible is the word of God. Many people will dispute this and I look forward to hearing the arguments. Let me say this: The Old Testament and New Testament make up the Word of God. In Christianity The Old Testament is not 'that old part that no christian reads!'. It is all the word. It is amazing that such a book still survives! There are more historical manuscripts of The Bible than of Alexander the Great! The Bible was written over a period of a few thousand years by over 40 authors, of whom there is barely a connection (with the exception of a few New Testament writers). Yet over this 3000 year period this book has formed with prophecies in the Old Testament which Jesus fulfillled. It all makes sense when read, connections between the Old Testament and New Testament are all over the place. That is pretty miraculous that this has occurred. 2. The Bible is historically accurate The four gospels are eyewitness testimonies of the life of Christ. They all vary but this proves the validity! What would you believe, four books which said exactly the same thing, or four books which talked about the same thing from different perspectives, yet still unanimously agree on who Christ is and what he did. People may argue that the writers could have made it up that Jesus was God and did that for their religion, well first of all: The books were written not 90 years after the death of Christ but were written within 30 years of his death. Paul's letters began to be written only 4-5 years after his death and there were people alive then who would have contested what the books said but no one did. Another thing, who in their right mind would die for a lie? A lie that they made up? Why is it, that one moment we have a bunch of uneducated fisherman in hiding from the authorities because their cult leader has been killed, in fear for their very lives and then the next moment they are out in force preaching to the Public with massive effect that Jesus rose from the dead and it is through him we can be saved! Most of them died for that LIE... or that ..Truth? The Good news is that God has not left us floundering in the dark. The spectacular life of Jesus, demonstrates that he is from God, that he is God, he is outside the Universe. The fact that Jesus got up from being dead double underlines who he is. God. Read Hebrews and John and Daniel for more information and talk to your local minister if you are interested in finding out more information. 3. Here is an awesome book I have read, it was written by a journalist who actually started out as an atheist and then began exploring the Christian faith and converted. The book is called, "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel. It is a great read for Non-Christians and Christians alike. Anyhow I think I have said enough. Bye all. Hope this makes sense...

Quick, someone help this man! He's been possessed by James Joyce!

Seriously, a "few" more paragraphs and perods are in order.

	21-04-2004 13:58									#65
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

jesus is taking a hammering in the poll

	21-04-2004 14:12									#66
	Increase Your PM Length

I only believe in the Divine Power of the Banana

	21-04-2004 14:12									#67
	Re: Re: Why God??!! Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Quick, someone help this man! He's been possessed by James Joyce! Seriously, a "few" more paragraphs and perods are in order.

Yeah sorry about that, I wasn't really worrying about grammar when writing it up. Forgive my ignorance but who is James Joyce?

	21-04-2004 14:39									#68
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

A vote for Rc is not a vote for Jesus?

	21-04-2004 14:50									#69
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

A vote for Protetantism is a vote for Jesus!

Black Knight: google "Finnegans Wake".

	21-04-2004 15:22									#70
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk A vote for Protetantism is a vote for Jesus! Black Knight: google "Finnegans Wake".

The title of the poll is "I believe in..."

That is why Catholicism and Protestantism is separate. I would be wary even in Protestant churches because "Protestantism" is a form of ideology with many many variations. A true believer would say I believe in Jesus over Protestantism any day. Being a Christian is not about belonging to a particular 'religous' sect, it's about believing in Jesus as your Lord and Saviour. I just wanted to strip it all down to the bare bone and not have the ideologies on top, if that makes any sense. Also I wanted to challenge people, do they put their faith more in their Church or what The Bible says (ideally the Church should be basing their ideas off the Bible in any case but sometimes people forget the context of the Bible). I have heard of Uniting Churches going off at Baptist Churches for the whole 'full submersion' deal for baptism. Plus I have heard of other churches going on about the prosperity gospel, and others going on about people who speak in tongues are more filled with the holy spirit. Then there is the whole free will vs God's sovereignty debate which is going on between various protestant churches with differing stances all round. I mean alot do share the underlying principle that Jesus is Lord etc however I just wanted to seperate Church Dogma from faith in Christ.

	21-04-2004 15:28									#71
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

The problem is, without specifity, it's hard to say what is really being believed in.

For example, a lot of poeple belive in Jesus, the same way they believe in George Washington or Ghengis Khan. I'm fairly sure that's not what you intend.

	21-04-2004 15:30									#72
	Full PM-box? Change here!

There are hoards of people out there who will say "I belive in Jesus", without having the slightest clue of who they are talking about, outside of a nativity display at Christmas, and maybe a church service at someplace nearby at Easter.

	21-04-2004 15:38									#73
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

This is true, but I think it shall also make people who actually do believe in Jesus but belong to other groups think for a second, and that is the point of the poll in some ways. But you do have a good point. Let's all thank God that it is only an Apolyton Poll and not a national survey, hehe. ...

	21-04-2004 16:34									#74
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: 1. The Bible is the word of God.

Prove it first. It's been written by men. The only books I know which are said to have been written by or under the dictation of (a) god are the Mahabharata and the Quran.

quote: The Old Testament and New Testament make up the Word of God.

It's the word because it's the word of God. Now that explains all.

quote: It is amazing that such a book still survives!

Well, it's even more amazing that Gilgamesh epics still survive. They are older than the Bible, after all...

quote: There are more historical manuscripts of The Bible than of Alexander the Great!

Because more people believed in the Christian god than in Alexander god.

quote: That is pretty miraculous that this has occurred.

In order to believe in miracles, you first have to believe in God, so this is circular logic.

quote: They all vary but this proves the validity! What would you believe, four books which said exactly the same thing, or four books which talked about the same thing from different perspectives, yet still unanimously agree on who Christ is and what he did.

If I invented a religion and asked four persons to write about it, they'd probably end up writing similar things. The veracity of the events is not proved by this.

quote: Another thing, who in their right mind would die for a lie?

Who in their right mind? Well, maybe those who did weren't in their right mind.

quote: Why is it, that one moment we have a bunch of uneducated fisherman in hiding from the authorities because their cult leader has been killed, in fear for their very lives and then the next moment they are out in force preaching to the Public with massive effect that Jesus rose from the dead and it is through him we can be saved! Most of them died for that LIE... or that ..Truth?

Ever seen a mob act rationally?

quote: The spectacular life of Jesus, demonstrates that he is from God, that he is God, he is outside the Universe.

That's actually catholics who said that. Others said he was a mortal. If you read the Bible, please tell us where Jesus says he is God. There has been so many fights in particular in Constantinople over the nature of Jesus that you can't pretend to know it from the Bible. It's not written there.

quote: Read Hebrews and John and Daniel for more information and talk to your local minister if you are interested in finding out more information.

Isn't this propaganda?

!bk, did you read books of other religions? Quran, Vedas, whatever?

	21-04-2004 16:43									#75
	Inflate your Upload Space

i worship the almighty banana.

	21-04-2004 17:13									#76
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Why did you bother to list some of the various sects of Christianity? Are you implying that Protestants, Catholics, Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in Jesus?

Last edited by Dr Strangelove on 21-04-2004 at 17:18

	21-04-2004 18:11									#77
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Why did you bother to list some of the various sects of Christianity? Are you implying that Protestants, Catholics, Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in Jesus?

Yes some don't, but then some do.

	21-04-2004 18:27									#78
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Islam 1 1.82% Catholicism 2 3.64% Jesus 7 12.73% Mormon 1 1.82% Jehovah's Witness 0 0% Protestantism 8 14.55% Hmm not sure 9 16.36% There is no God 24 43.64% Hinduism 1 1.82% Buddhism 2 3.64%

Excellent show, polytubbies.

-Arrian

	21-04-2004 19:03									#79
	Get a bigger avatar today!

If religion equals belief, how can one vote "not sure". Seems rather strange, no?


-
I voted no God....shocking eh.

Islam  	 	1  	1.72%

Catholicism 		2 	3.45%

Jesus 		7 	12.07%

Mormon 		1 	1.72%

Jehovah's Witness 		0 	0%

Protestantism 		8 	13.79%

Hmm not sure 		10 	17.24%

There is no God 		26 	44.83%

Hinduism 		1 	1.72%

Buddhism 		2 	3.45%

	21-04-2004 19:04									#80
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Kucinich quote: 1. The Bible is the word of God. Many people will dispute this and I look forward to hearing the arguments. Let me say this: The Old Testament and New Testament make up the Word of God. In Christianity The Old Testament is not 'that old part that no christian reads!'. It is all the word. It is amazing that such a book still survives! There are more historical manuscripts of The Bible than of Alexander the Great! The Bible was written over a period of a few thousand years by over 40 authors, of whom there is barely a connection (with the exception of a few New Testament writers). Yet over this 3000 year period this book has formed with prophecies in the Old Testament which Jesus fulfillled. It all makes sense when read, connections between the Old Testament and New Testament are all over the place. That is pretty miraculous that this has occurred. A really big non sequiter. I fail to see how any of that actually demonstrates it as the word of god. quote: 2. The Bible is historically accurate The four gospels are eyewitness testimonies of the life of Christ. They all vary but this proves the validity! What would you believe, four books which said exactly the same thing, or four books which talked about the same thing from different perspectives, yet still unanimously agree on who Christ is and what he did. So? This isn't evidence that they are correct. I could write four manuscripts, slightly inconsistent with each other, that were all in agreement that Yoplait is the earthly representation of the divine, but that doesn't mean it's true. quote: People may argue that the writers could have made it up that Jesus was God and did that for their religion, well first of all: The books were written not 90 years after the death of Christ but were written within 30 years of his death. Paul's letters began to be written only 4-5 years after his death and there were people alive then who would have contested what the books said but no one did. Evidence? This appears to be a bald assertion. quote: Another thing, who in their right mind would die for a lie? Millions of German soldiers in WWII? Suicide bombers in Israel? quote: A lie that they made up? Self-delusion is a powerful force. quote: Why is it, that one moment we have a bunch of uneducated fisherman in hiding from the authorities because their cult leader has been killed, in fear for their very lives and then the next moment they are out in force preaching to the Public with massive effect that Jesus rose from the dead and it is through him we can be saved! Most of them died for that LIE... or that ..Truth? Do you ascribe the same truthood to "suicide cults"? quote: The Good news is that God has not left us floundering in the dark. The spectacular life of Jesus, demonstrates that he is from God, that he is God, he is outside the Universe. The fact that Jesus got up from being dead double underlines who he is. God. You have to prove that that happened, first. quote: Read Hebrews and John and Daniel for more information and talk to your local minister if you are interested in finding out more information. Sorry, no dice. I was raised Catholic, I had to go to a frigging Catholic school for four years, and I'm glad I escaped. I know enough.

Sorry about the lengthy time to reply. Most probably my answers will not satisfy you guys as I am no theologian scholar however I will try my best.

In answer to your first qualm:

Is the Bible the word of God?
I believe the Bible is the Word of God because it rings true to me.
First of all I would like to ask you a few questions. Who do you think Jesus is? Who does he claim he is? The Bible has about 40 different authors. Yes I admit the Bible was written by men however the Bible reads as if it is written by one author. As I have said, the bible was created over a period of about 3000 years, yet it all makes sense? The vast majority of these authors did not know each other. I would like you to prove to me that the Bible isn't the word of God?! Have you even read it? Have you read all of it? Not just random quotes from various people?

2. In answer to your objection to the historical accuracy of the four gospels.
First of all there are also non-christian sources about Jesus and what he did. Two of the most notable were Josephus (a jewish historian: See "The Works of Josephus") and Tacitus (A Roman Historian see "Annals"). Now onto the gospels: first of all if you had four eyewitnesses to a murder who all testified against the defendant then that defendant would go to jail. Next point: Matthew was a tax collector, another was a fisherman and another was a doctor (can't remember exactly who the others were). Infact I would argue that the disciples themselves were some of the biggest doubters of Christ and his claims until after the resurrection. In Luke 8:22-25 there is a massive storm on the water, Jesus and his disciples are in the boat, they fear for their lives so they wake up Jesus, he calms the storm and then rebukes his disciples, "Where is your faith?" He asked his disciples.
In fear and amazement they asked one another, "Who is this? He commands even the winds and the water, and they obey him". Other examples include the feeding of the 5000, even initially after Jesus' death the disciples did not believe it was true and till Jesus actually appeared to them and showed them his wounds.

So the disciples were probably even more sceptical than you, yet after his death they began a faith which now has approximately 1 billion followers. There are many references to historical places in the gospels which have been traced by historians and found to be true.
This probably ties in with your next objection about German soldier dying for a lie etc. For starters that is a pretty terrible connection you made considering these guys are from completely different contexts. Germany has just suffered a massive depression, the country has gone through hell and back, the people are crying out for a strong leader, I'm sure that many soldiers knew it was a lie but enjoyed it. Germany had the potential to profit out of WWII. On the other hand, the people who wrote the gospels had no motive for profit whatsoever. The only payment they received for their writing was execution and persecution. Furthermore Jesus appeared not only to the disciples after his death but to hundreds of people who were still alive when Paul was arguing this and they didn't contest that. I think it would require more faith to think that the writers of the gospels were deluded delinquints who were experiencing one massive hallucination and were hypnotised as there were just too many people who could verify that Jesus was raised from the dead. Too many people saw him after his death. Even in that small room where Jesus first appeared there was quite a substantial group of people.

I have barely scratched the surface on this. There are whole books dedicated to this issue and if you are interested then read the book I suggested at the end of my first post, in that there are a whole load of references to other books on the topic.

3. Concerning Suicide Cults
Was Jesus teaching Suicide?

4. Jesus is God
I believe that this will also take care of your question LDiCesare. First of all lets see who Jesus by his actions. He is a man running out the middle east creating a whole new religious movement. Healing the sick and raising the dead. This shows that he isn't your average human being, BUT people will say, "didn't he use that by God's authority?". Yes he did, he was God in human form. Now, he has been called, The Son of Man, The Son of God, The Word, The Light and he called himself "I AM" which is in reference to what God called himself when talking to Moses in the desert and burning bush.
In Luke 22:69-70 Jesus is being questioned by the Pharisees as to his identity:
"But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God."
They all asked, "Are you then the Son of God?"
He replied, "You are right in saying I am."
Then in Mark 14:62-64 this scene is shown. Also in Matthew 26:64-65.
So Jesus alludes to being "The Son of Man" in Daniel Chapter 7:13-14. In John Chapter One it says, "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darnkess, but the darkness has not understood it." Then it goes on and finally links this to Jesus. Read the chapter if you want the whole picture.
After all this, Jesus' claim to be God is made crystal clear in Hebrews Chapter 1:5-9
"For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son; today I have become your father?"
Or again,
"I will be his father,
and he will be my Son?"
And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
"Let all God's angels worship him.
...But about the Son he says,
"Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness:
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy"
If that isn't enough for you, then Isaiah prophecies the coming of a suffering servant who will bear our sins, read Isaiah 52:13- ch53:12.
Also Psalm 22 Alludes to Christ. In fact there are many more quotes in the Bible where Jesus claims to be God such as John10:31-39.
You may argue that Jesus is mad, yet he could rationally argue and debate with some of the nations top thinkers of the times.

NO i haven't read the koran, but I have read excerpts. I have read books on Islam and other religions and I can say without a doubt in my heart that Christianity sets itself apart from other faiths through the teachings of Jesus and The Bible. So we have four eyewitnesses recording that Jesus claims he is God. Some of the titles he is called such as Son of Man allude to prophetic dreams in the Old testament and concerning Son of God...Jesus is The Son of God and also God. Seems confusing, yes and that is because we are only human. But it is obvious that from the quotes I have told you, Jesus does also claim to be God. Now even without these eyewitnesses we still have the non-historical sources that outline who Jesus claimed to be and what he did, plus we have the other books of the New Testament. Plus we have the entire Old Testament which points to the coming of Christ. So this book written by 40 different people yet still reads the same is alot more significant than the tales of Gilgamesh.

It is proven that there was a historical figure called Jesus of Nazareth. No historian denies that our dating system revolves around Jesus' life and no historian denies that Jesus existed as there is just too lmuch evidence (I can't include everything so I suggest you do your own reading as this is a life and death matter for you). So Jesus definately existed. Numerous accounts of who he claimed to be, he himself claimed he was God so where does that put you? Can you prove to me that all these people are wrong? That Jesus never existed? That he wasn't crucified? Sure the Pharoahs claimed to be gods but then they didn't do all the stuff Jesus did and they don't have such a massive following as Jesus does today. So why don't you prove to me that God doesn't exist? Prove to me that Jesus didn't die for our sins? Prove to me that The Bible isn't The Word of God? If you can do that then you will make me an unbeliever! lol.

Funnily enough some of the most adamant non-believers who set out to take down Christianity were converted. Such as Saul from Tarsus who later was called Paul and who wrote a substantial amount of Books that are now in the New Testament. He was a Pharisee and he hated Christians with a passion until Christ appeared to him and turned him. We're talking about someone who executed and tortured Christians for a living and got enjoyment out of it, and yet he became one of the most prolific writers of the new testament. Now that's a miracle. Are you going to try and argue to me that he was fooled? That he was hypnotised? I think that argument would requre more faith then my belief in the existence of God.

[sorry about the lack of editing guys, I wrote this without spellchecking and it is late and I am tired and I am not getting marked on this at uni so I'm not too worried]

	21-04-2004 19:08									#81
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: believe the Bible is the Word of God because it rings true to me.

And it doesn't to others. At the end of the day, all that matters to me is that those who do believe and those who don't will respect each others' beliefs and leave each other the hell alone.

-Arrian, to whom the Bible rings about as true as The Onion

	21-04-2004 19:21									#82
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

whether or not God exist can be only decided on the basis of personal experience. The arguments for and against are just meaningless

The "against" side will claim - where do you see God now, and alternatively try to discredit what the believer representatives - such as Churches/Bible were claiming as true.

On the other hands believers will claim one or the other and ultimatley disagree because history is not math.

to cut the chase.

and now give you another bone

if evolution is true - God (or a God like powers being) is inevitable.

	21-04-2004 19:23									#83
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Arrian And it doesn't to others. At the end of the day, all that matters to me is that those who do believe and those who don't will respect each others' beliefs and leave each other the hell alone. -Arrian, to whom the Bible rings about as true as The Onion

I respect another person's right to believe whatever they want to believe, but I also like to civilly debate topics such as religion and see what people's arguments are against Christianity so that I can be challenged. The best forum for debate is the public arena, and I would love it, if someone stumped me on an issue. I'm not wanting to sound arrogant but I feel that in order to mature in my relationship with Christ I need this outside stimulus because to be honest, I get tired of going to Bible Studying and just listening to people agree with whatever the Bible study leader says. I think if you want to have a good argument for your faith you need to talk to people who are just as passionate as you but are in polarity to you. Anyhow enough said from me, I'm off to bed. I wonder how many flamers will take me down tomorrow.

	21-04-2004 19:28									#84
	Suffering from ads?

dp

	21-04-2004 19:39									#85
	Put an end to popups!

Think you might be allowed to being a hand-held fans along?

There is no God 28 45.90%

	21-04-2004 19:39									#86
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: NO i haven't read the koran, but I have read excerpts.

And you criticize those who have read only parts of the Bible?

As for Jesus being God, I think you should really look at the history of the Nestorian heresy. It is NOT crystal clear from the Bible.

And do the non-Biblic sources you quoted talk about resurrections? Noone denies the historicity of Jesus, but non Christian authors don't talk about his doing anything out of the ordinary that would have required divine powers.

quote: I believe the Bible is the Word of God because it rings true to me.

That's in fact the only good argument you make. You are saying that belief is an act of faith, and thus there is no reasoning about it. There's little point trying to convince people either way. To me the Bible rings... errr, I'd better not say it, you'd be scared.

	21-04-2004 19:52									#87
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare And you criticize those who have read only parts of the Bible?

Well like you, who has probably read enough to know you don't believe in Christianity, I have read enough to know that Islam is not for me. I fully intend on reading the entire Koran. I wasn't attacking Islam, I was talking to Kucinich considering that he wanted me to prove that The Bible was the Word of God and I asked him if has read the entire The Bible. Of course it has just dawned upon me that he did say he spent a while in Catholic school so he probably has read The Bible. My bad. People make mistakes when they are tired and talking about complex issues.

	21-04-2004 20:02									#88
	Got spare money?

quote: The title of the poll is "I believe in..." That is why Catholicism and Protestantism is separate. I would be wary even in Protestant churches because "Protestantism" is a form of ideology with many many variations. A true believer would say I believe in Jesus over Protestantism any day. Being a Christian is not about belonging to a particular 'religous' sect, it's about believing in Jesus as your Lord and Saviour. I just wanted to strip it all down to the bare bone and not have the ideologies on top, if that makes any sense. Also I wanted to challenge people, do they put their faith more in their Church or what The Bible says (ideally the Church should be basing their ideas off the Bible in any case but sometimes people forget the context of the Bible). I have heard of Uniting Churches going off at Baptist Churches for the whole 'full submersion' deal for baptism. Plus I have heard of other churches going on about the prosperity gospel, and others going on about people who speak in tongues are more filled with the holy spirit. Then there is the whole free will vs God's sovereignty debate which is going on between various protestant churches with differing stances all round. I mean alot do share the underlying principle that Jesus is Lord etc however I just wanted to seperate Church Dogma from faith in Christ.

if this is the case, you really ought to separate the several schools of buddhism from each other. some almost deify buddha, while others do not. some believe the path to enlightenment is through rigorous study of the sutras, others believe it is through self-exploration/examination. i can't speak for hinduism, though.

	21-04-2004 20:08									#89
	Tired of ads?

quote: respect another person's right to believe whatever they want to believe, but I also like to civilly debate topics such as religion and see what people's arguments are against Christianity so that I can be challenged. The best forum for debate is the public arena, and I would love it, if someone stumped me on an issue. I'm not wanting to sound arrogant but I feel that in order to mature in my relationship with Christ I need this outside stimulus because to be honest, I get tired of going to Bible Studying and just listening to people agree with whatever the Bible study leader says. I think if you want to have a good argument for your faith you need to talk to people who are just as passionate as you but are in polarity to you.

Well, thumbs up to you for this

I'm just not up for it now. Maybe some other time. This debate has been done here a lot, and usually lacks the civility you mention. Sleep well.

-Arrian

	21-04-2004 20:20									#90
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Black Knight84 Since when did an opinion become a propaganda dump? Does that then classify everyone's opinion on this topic as 'propaganda' or is it just because I touched on an issue that some people are touchy with? Or is it because I'm a Christian?

It is a propaganda dump, because
1. you solely came to Apolyton to speak about God, and you have contributed absolutely nothing else than that on this fansite dedicated to civilization games. As such, you easily fall in the category of "guy browing forums at random looking for converts"
This is even clearer since you are not a forum newbie, as showed by your use of the poll function, and your knowledge of words like "troll", on your very first thread. You clearly have an experience in other forums.

2. Your opening post seems to be solely about preaching that God is true. And you even end it saying "if you're interested, go speak to your local priest". Nothing wrong with propaganda - I even made it my job for two months. However, this is an obvious maneuver to attract people to the church.

Be honest: did you come to Apolyton in order to have people discover the Christ and start believing in him?