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Black Knight84
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Science is great, and it has alot of stuff going for it. I mean I'm glad I'm living on this side of the scientific revolution! I just thought I would point out that people would probably have to get more faith to believe in there being NO God then people who believe there is a God. Science can't answer questions of Philosophy. Science attempts to answer the question, "How". It is an amazing fluke, that the universe was created? Or, God created the Universe? You would have more of a chance taking a lego man and his house all broken up, putting it all in a bag and shaking it until all the pieces fit together then you would have of the first life cells being created in the mud by chance. Indeed, if the 'dials' of the universe were set even a millifraction lower it would be a cold desolate place with no life whatsoever! Science is great for explaining 'how': the big bang theory, evolution etc. When we look at science and what it has done we can realise that we haven't even scratched the tip of the iceberg. If evolution was proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is true tomorrow then the existence of God would be no less, as we would have just discovered how we were created (concerning the book of Genesis I will come back to it) Human Philosophy attempts to answer "why" and to my mind, can be at times extremely confusing and I wonder if the Philosophers really had much of an understanding. Bakunin and Nietzche despised God and Christians for a good reason in that due to Sin even Christians screw up..big time. You look at the crusades, the middle ages and even today's 'tele-evangelists' promoting this 'prosperity gospel'. Yes ladies and gentlemen humanity is great at distorting everything because we ourselves are distorted beings. It is a sad fact that no religion seems to take this into account apart from Christianity. The Bible (when read in context and there are people who really try to understand what the Bible is saying and not what we want it to say). It doesn't take a genius to look around and see how messed up the world can be, so I must ask, if there is a God who is so pure and perfect. Who is too holy to look upon then how can we expect to even begin to impress him with the deeds we do?? I'm not going to start slamming people with Bible verses, as I hate just taking one liners and slamming them into the face of people, as that allows the quote to be taken out of context and mis-interpreted. I will say a few though, Romans 3:10-11 "There is no one righteous, not even one: there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God". Paul is presenting an argument that for the first two chapters sets out what God's plan with the world is and how sinful humans are, he says in Romans 2:7 he says, "for those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honour and immortality, he will give eternal life" yet later we see he says there is no one righteous. I would suggest reading the entire book of Romans and talking to a minister about it for an understanding but basically he is arguing that you can't be saved by 'works' only by 'faith in Christ'. See Romans 3:21-31. I have only touched upon some very general themes of the Christian faith however it differs from all other faiths. All other faiths believe that you can be saved by 'working your way up the ladder'. For Islam, following the five pillars of islam is essential, some of those include fasting and prayer 5 times a day. A holy pilgrimage to Mecca will pretty much guarantee you a place in heaven. In Buddhism, "YOU" must practise ways of ridding yourself of your corrupted parts in order to enter into a permanent state of ethereal bliss, in Judaism you have to follow the Old Testament Laws in order to be saved, but the fact is I can guarantee that not one jew (apart from Jesus) has followed every single one. Even "Catholicism" in it's most traditional sense put's more of a emphasis on works! Confession, attending mass, the fancy rituals-something very similar to other faiths. Please understand that God is not interested on what we 'show' on the outside, he is interested in what is in our hearts, and unfortunately Sin spews forth and the only way to negate that is to put our faith and trust in Jesus as he took the punishment we all deserve and saved us from our Sins. Now I'm not going to sit here and say that Catholics aren't Christians, there are many who are! I would argue that "Catholicism" seems to not only be based on what The Bible says but on a whole load of other literary works which contradict The Bible, thus it can become a little confusing. I would like to stress that The Bible is the only book that is the "Word of God" everything else revolves around that, if you preach something that contradicts The Bible then stop it (now I could go into the dead sea scrolls and the apocrypha but maybe someone else would like to) The fact is we are hypocrites, we say one thing, we do another. We may preach against adultery and then we go out and think lustful thoughts and go through with our actions of lust. We know it is wrong to steal and swear but we still do it, why? Because we can't help it, we are human. God knows this, that is why we have a chance of being saved. As a Christian we are saved in faith through Christ but as Paul says in Romans chapter 3:31 "Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law". Why? Because the law makes us conscious of our sin and it helps us grow and attempt to live the way Christ did.. of course I'm not saying that we can't eat meat on fridays because that is a ritual that no longer needs to be done (sure you can do it if you feel the need but you don't earn brownie points). In fact we don't earn brownie points with God by observing any of the law, but we do it as Christians because we want to respond to the Grace God has given us (read Colossians). By putting Jesus into the centre of your life and accepting him as your saviour you are saved. What follows then is a life long transformation that ends in heaven, where we change, we try not to slander others, murder etc because that is not a part of Christ's identity and thus we need to try and work towards that~keep in mind as a Christian why would you not want to do it anyhow? Faith without works is dead, but we must always remember that the works don't save us. Other religions seem to put more emphasis on the 'works' side of it.
Now: Quickly going back to Genesis:
I don't think evolution poses a problem for reading genesis. Christians over the years have tried to make Genesis into a lab report of how God made the world. I think the first chapters of the Bible are written to explain WHO made us and WHY, not HOW and WHEN: I think Genesis is answering the philosophical question. There's the poetic form to the words, there's the different order of Creation in Chapter one to chapter two with each one making its own theological point. There seems to be a definite polemic to it as though it is being written specifically combat the other creationist accounts that seemed to be going on in the ancient world. So while I think it is entirely possible for the God described in The Bible to create the world in 6 days or in an instant, I'm not convinced that it must be read that way; I think the jury is still out. What Genesis does definately affirm is that you and I are not some gigantic fluke. You are not just some meaningless bag of chemicals waiting to return to the dust. You have been designed and purposely made and there is something about us that sets us apart from the rest of what has been made. Somehow we bear the stamp of God himself! Jellyfish, dogs, and rocks cannot know God but you and I can and should ackowledge the one who has made us.
So why God? Why Jesus? Why not Buddha or Muhammod's God? Why the Christian God?
You need to explore that one yourself.
I believe in Jesus, I don't blindly believe, I think about why and I welcome anyone to challenge what I have said so in turn I can further reflect on your arguments.
Here are a few final questions and statements I put forward to you?
1. The Bible is the word of God.
Many people will dispute this and I look forward to hearing the arguments. Let me say this: The Old Testament and New Testament make up the Word of God. In Christianity The Old Testament is not 'that old part that no christian reads!'. It is all the word. It is amazing that such a book still survives! There are more historical manuscripts of The Bible than of Alexander the Great! The Bible was written over a period of a few thousand years by over 40 authors, of whom there is barely a connection (with the exception of a few New Testament writers). Yet over this 3000 year period this book has formed with prophecies in the Old Testament which Jesus fulfillled. It all makes sense when read, connections between the Old Testament and New Testament are all over the place.
That is pretty miraculous that this has occurred.
2. The Bible is historically accurate
The four gospels are eyewitness testimonies of the life of Christ. They all vary but this proves the validity! What would you believe, four books which said exactly the same thing, or four books which talked about the same thing from different perspectives, yet still unanimously agree on who Christ is and what he did.
People may argue that the writers could have made it up that Jesus was God and did that for their religion, well first of all: The books were written not 90 years after the death of Christ but were written within 30 years of his death. Paul's letters began to be written only 4-5 years after his death and there were people alive then who would have contested what the books said but no one did.
Another thing, who in their right mind would die for a lie? A lie that they made up? Why is it, that one moment we have a bunch of uneducated fisherman in hiding from the authorities because their cult leader has been killed, in fear for their very lives and then the next moment they are out in force preaching to the Public with massive effect that Jesus rose from the dead and it is through him we can be saved! Most of them died for that LIE... or that ..Truth?
The Good news is that God has not left us floundering in the dark. The spectacular life of Jesus, demonstrates that he is from God, that he is God, he is outside the Universe. The fact that Jesus got up from being dead double underlines who he is. God. Read Hebrews and John and Daniel for more information and talk to your local minister if you are interested in finding out more information.
3. Here is an awesome book I have read, it was written by a journalist who actually started out as an atheist and then began exploring the Christian faith and converted. The book is called, "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel. It is a great read for Non-Christians and Christians alike. Anyhow I think I have said enough. Bye all. Hope this makes sense...
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Kuciwalker
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of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:35
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quote:
1. The Bible is the word of God.
Many people will dispute this and I look forward to hearing the arguments. Let me say this: The Old Testament and New Testament make up the Word of God. In Christianity The Old Testament is not 'that old part that no christian reads!'. It is all the word. It is amazing that such a book still survives! There are more historical manuscripts of The Bible than of Alexander the Great! The Bible was written over a period of a few thousand years by over 40 authors, of whom there is barely a connection (with the exception of a few New Testament writers). Yet over this 3000 year period this book has formed with prophecies in the Old Testament which Jesus fulfillled. It all makes sense when read, connections between the Old Testament and New Testament are all over the place.
That is pretty miraculous that this has occurred. |
A really big non sequiter. I fail to see how any of that actually demonstrates it as the word of god.
quote:
2. The Bible is historically accurate
The four gospels are eyewitness testimonies of the life of Christ. They all vary but this proves the validity! What would you believe, four books which said exactly the same thing, or four books which talked about the same thing from different perspectives, yet still unanimously agree on who Christ is and what he did. |
So? This isn't evidence that they are correct. I could write four manuscripts, slightly inconsistent with each other, that were all in agreement that Yoplait is the earthly representation of the divine, but that doesn't mean it's true.
quote:
People may argue that the writers could have made it up that Jesus was God and did that for their religion, well first of all: The books were written not 90 years after the death of Christ but were written within 30 years of his death. Paul's letters began to be written only 4-5 years after his death and there were people alive then who would have contested what the books said but no one did. |
Evidence? This appears to be a bald assertion.
quote:
Another thing, who in their right mind would die for a lie? |
Millions of German soldiers in WWII? Suicide bombers in Israel?
quote:
A lie that they made up? |
Self-delusion is a powerful force.
quote:
Why is it, that one moment we have a bunch of uneducated fisherman in hiding from the authorities because their cult leader has been killed, in fear for their very lives and then the next moment they are out in force preaching to the Public with massive effect that Jesus rose from the dead and it is through him we can be saved! Most of them died for that LIE... or that ..Truth? |
Do you ascribe the same truthood to "suicide cults"?
quote:
The Good news is that God has not left us floundering in the dark. The spectacular life of Jesus, demonstrates that he is from God, that he is God, he is outside the Universe. The fact that Jesus got up from being dead double underlines who he is. God. |
You have to prove that that happened, first.
quote:
Read Hebrews and John and Daniel for more information and talk to your local minister if you are interested in finding out more information. |
Sorry, no dice. I was raised Catholic, I had to go to a frigging Catholic school for four years, and I'm glad I escaped. I know enough.
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Kuciwalker
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of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:35
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quote:
Science is great, and it has alot of stuff going for it. I mean I'm glad I'm living on this side of the scientific revolution! I just thought I would point out that people would probably have to get more faith to believe in there being NO God then people who believe there is a God. Science can't answer questions of Philosophy. Science attempts to answer the question, "How". It is an amazing fluke, that the universe was created? Or, God created the Universe? You would have more of a chance taking a lego man and his house all broken up, putting it all in a bag and shaking it until all the pieces fit together then you would have of the first life cells being created in the mud by chance. Indeed, if the 'dials' of the universe were set even a millifraction lower it would be a cold desolate place with no life whatsoever! Science is great for explaining 'how': the big bang theory, evolution etc. When we look at science and what it has done we can realise that we haven't even scratched the tip of the iceberg. If evolution was proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is true tomorrow then the existence of God would be no less, as we would have just discovered how we were created (concerning the book of Genesis I will come back to it) Human Philosophy attempts to answer "why" and to my mind, can be at times extremely confusing and I wonder if the Philosophers really had much of an understanding. |
Circular reasoning. There is only a "why", a purpose, if you presume an intelligent creator. If you do not, then there is only a "how", a mechanism. Science doesn't have to answer why, because it doesn't make the assumption that there is one. Why should there be?
quote:
Bakunin and Nietzche despised God and Christians for a good reason in that due to Sin even Christians screw up..big time. You look at the crusades, the middle ages and even today's 'tele-evangelists' promoting this 'prosperity gospel'. Yes ladies and gentlemen humanity is great at distorting everything because we ourselves are distorted beings. It is a sad fact that no religion seems to take this into account apart from Christianity. The Bible (when read in context and there are people who really try to understand what the Bible is saying and not what we want it to say). It doesn't take a genius to look around and see how messed up the world can be, so I must ask, if there is a God who is so pure and perfect. Who is too holy to look upon then how can we expect to even begin to impress him with the deeds we do?? I'm not going to start slamming people with Bible verses, as I hate just taking one liners and slamming them into the face of people, as that allows the quote to be taken out of context and mis-interpreted. I will say a few though, Romans 3:10-11 "There is no one righteous, not even one: there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God". Paul is presenting an argument that for the first two chapters sets out what God's plan with the world is and how sinful humans are, he says in Romans 2:7 he says, "for those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honour and immortality, he will give eternal life" yet later we see he says there is no one righteous. I would suggest reading the entire book of Romans and talking to a minister about it for an understanding but basically he is arguing that you can't be saved by 'works' only by 'faith in Christ'. See Romans 3:21-31. I have only touched upon some very general themes of the Christian faith however it differs from all other faiths. All other faiths believe that you can be saved by 'working your way up the ladder'. For Islam, following the five pillars of islam is essential, some of those include fasting and prayer 5 times a day. A holy pilgrimage to Mecca will pretty much guarantee you a place in heaven. In Buddhism, "YOU" must practise ways of ridding yourself of your corrupted parts in order to enter into a permanent state of ethereal bliss, in Judaism you have to follow the Old Testament Laws in order to be saved, but the fact is I can guarantee that not one jew (apart from Jesus) has followed every single one. Even "Catholicism" in it's most traditional sense put's more of a emphasis on works! Confession, attending mass, the fancy rituals-something very similar to other faiths. Please understand that God is not interested on what we 'show' on the outside, he is interested in what is in our hearts, and unfortunately Sin spews forth and the only way to negate that is to put our faith and trust in Jesus as he took the punishment we all deserve and saved us from our Sins. Now I'm not going to sit here and say that Catholics aren't Christians, there are many who are! I would argue that "Catholicism" seems to not only be based on what The Bible says but on a whole load of other literary works which contradict The Bible, thus it can become a little confusing. I would like to stress that The Bible is the only book that is the "Word of God" everything else revolves around that, if you preach something that contradicts The Bible then stop it (now I could go into the dead sea scrolls and the apocrypha but maybe someone else would like to) The fact is we are hypocrites, we say one thing, we do another. We may preach against adultery and then we go out and think lustful thoughts and go through with our actions of lust. We know it is wrong to steal and swear but we still do it, why? Because we can't help it, we are human. God knows this, that is why we have a chance of being saved. As a Christian we are saved in faith through Christ but as Paul says in Romans chapter 3:31 "Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law". Why? Because the law makes us conscious of our sin and it helps us grow and attempt to live the way Christ did.. of course I'm not saying that we can't eat meat on fridays because that is a ritual that no longer needs to be done (sure you can do it if you feel the need but you don't earn brownie points). In fact we don't earn brownie points with God by observing any of the law, but we do it as Christians because we want to respond to the Grace God has given us (read Colossians). By putting Jesus into the centre of your life and accepting him as your saviour you are saved. What follows then is a life long transformation that ends in heaven, where we change, we try not to slander others, murder etc because that is not a part of Christ's identity and thus we need to try and work towards that~keep in mind as a Christian why would you not want to do it anyhow? Faith without works is dead, but we must always remember that the works don't save us. Other religions seem to put more emphasis on the 'works' side of it. |
I missed how any of this provided evidence for the existance of an intelligent, omnipotent creator, particularly the one described in the Bible. It just appears to be an explanation of your personal moral philosophy, as it relates to your religion.
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