22-04-2004 02:15									#31
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Vanunu was a heroic whistleblower.

	22-04-2004 02:20									#32
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He's quite lucky Israel is so soft headed when it comes to these things, if it had been another country he would either still be in jail and stay there until the day he died or have been executed.

	22-04-2004 02:35									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov Kim Philby

indeed!

	22-04-2004 02:37									#34
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Unless it happened in Britain.

Clive Ponting discovered the Government (Thatcher's) was deliberately misleading Parliament over the cost of Trident. He was prosecuted for breaching the Official Secrets Act. The Judge, in his summing up, patiently showed that he had indeed breached the Act.

The jury, in a magnificent "**** you" that single-handedly justified the presence of juries in criminal trials, found him not guilty and he walked free.

	22-04-2004 02:39									#35
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc He's quite lucky Israel is so soft headed when it comes to these things, if it had been another country he would either still be in jail and stay there until the day he died or have been executed.

Such as in the United States.

He is a hero to his nation

	22-04-2004 02:40									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Such as in the United States.

Yes. Pollard is still in jail and the Rosenburgs faired a bit worse.

	22-04-2004 02:45									#37
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Pollard sold secrets of other countries (i read he sold satellite images of arab countries to israel). He's in jail longer.

	22-04-2004 02:47									#38
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quote: Clive Ponting discovered the Government (Thatcher's) was deliberately misleading Parliament over the cost of Trident

not the same thing.

i wonder what would have happenned had he discovered some defense secret.

	22-04-2004 11:25									#39
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That was a defence secret. It was a key factor in the decision as to whether Trident nuclear missiles were adopted.

	22-04-2004 11:50									#40
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How is kidnapping someone in a foreign country even close to being within the rule of law?

	22-04-2004 12:06									#41
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Kidnappings, assasinations all that is what intelligence organzations do Buck. Particularly the axis of evil : USA, Israel. Russia does it too but just for the sake of tradition.

	22-04-2004 12:16									#42
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The guy's an idiot. Israel has nukes so that Arab countries won't dare to directly attack it and proceed to destroy it. It does not have them because they want to nuke everyone off the planet or something.
That said, he's a traitor; however though treason in any other country is defined as doing what he did, in Israel there also has to be proof that he did it maliciously (I think), and that is why he wasn't tried for treason.

	22-04-2004 15:12									#43
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Tell me Zevico, how did Vanunus revelations actually hurt the israel? At the end I think he was more like doing a favour to israel by going public about its nukes. He should be rewarded by israel.

	22-04-2004 15:15									#44
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It has always puzzled me why Israel has been so close mouthed about it's nukes.

The whole point of a deterrant is that you tell your enemies about it, you advertise it, you test it.

If you don't, it stops being a detterent.

So maybe, Vananu did Israel a favour that it's leaders were too stupid, stubborn, or arrogant to work out for themselves.

He has no regrets so I can't see why I should on his behalf.

	22-04-2004 15:22									#45
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My opinion exactly Cruddy.

Israel being tight-lipped about her nuclear weapons reminds me of Dr. Strangelove; you know the scene where the Russian ambassador tells Dr. Strangelove that they have a doomsday machine, with Strangelove responding that the entire point of having a detterent like that is only useful if you tell the opposite side.

Vananu did Israel a national service. If any Arab power contemplated messing with them again before 1986, you can bet his revelations put paid to their aspirations.

	22-04-2004 16:35									#46
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I am glad to know that the solitary confinement was relieved to the extent you describe, Sirotnikov.

But it was still hard on this man to leave him to spend such an enormous amount of time alone.

	22-04-2004 16:36									#47
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Israel is not a declared member of the "nuclear club" in the NPT. This would subject them to being cut off from U.S. aid if they admitted having nukes. They need everybody to believe it while not admitting it and also not having any proof out there. Vanunu came too close to providing proof and Israel had to silence him to maintain the status quo.

	22-04-2004 16:46									#48
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the question still stands ...

pakistan has also nukes. and is a key ally of the US in the far east
do you really think the US would drop Isreal if they admitted having nuclear weapons ?

the real problem is that iran and at that time iraq were developping nukes of their own. and even the israeli governement saw the hypocrisy in protesting the fact that an islamic country was devlopping nukes, while they were building their own.

	22-04-2004 16:50									#49
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quote: Originally posted by dannubis do you really think the US would drop Isreal if they admitted having nuclear weapons ?

Of course not, but it would cause a change in US law and policy that would weaken our position WRT "rogue" nations.

	22-04-2004 16:51									#50
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I have never been much impressed with the proposition that the threat of nuclear retaliation deters those who like to start wars.

And the present situation with Iraq has done nothing to make the proposition seem any more credible. Bush and Blair precipitated a war in this case specifically because they believed Iraq had hideous weapons.

Happily they were mistaken.

But their belief certainly did not deter them.

	22-04-2004 16:55									#51
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO Of course not, but it would cause a change in US law and policy that would weaken our position WRT "rogue" nations.

so you are saying that it would have a negative effect on the US position vis a vis the israeli nuclear arsenal ?

because in this perticular case, that's what israel obviously is, a 'rogue" nation.

	22-04-2004 17:01									#52
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Yes...It would make it harder to apply the double standard. WRT nuclear weapon development, Israel is a rogue nation. The saving grace is that they seem to be alluding to a "no first use" policy. Israel's nukes must remain un-admitted in order for the world to keep declaring the ME as a nuke free zone. Surely that greater goal is worth pursuing. We can only hope that if there is ever peace there that pressure will be brought to bear on Israel to destroy any nukes it may have.

	22-04-2004 17:10									#53
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hmmm. i agree with you on the latter...
but i don't get the reason why the ME has to be a nuke free zone. It clearly doesn't stop the violence. Israel can't use its nukes because technically they don't exist. If they do use them they end up glowing in the dark themselves... So what's the point in having them ?

and in this regard, what vanunu did was exposure of this weapons program. He did not sell any technology to rivalling countries, so i don't see how you could call this guy a traitor...

	22-04-2004 17:46									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov quote: Clive Ponting discovered the Government (Thatcher's) was deliberately misleading Parliament over the cost of Trident not the same thing. i wonder what would have happenned had he discovered some defense secret.

Like maybe Daniel Ellsberg and The Pentagon Papers?

	22-04-2004 17:46									#55
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A nuke free ME by agreement is never going to happen. Israel would never disarm, but neither would Pakistan, due to India. India wouldn't disarm due to China, and China wouldn't disarm due to Russia, and the USA.

Oh, and the nukes already helped Israel once: during 73'.

	22-04-2004 17:49									#56
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PLATO has been entirely correct in this thread. The U.S. would not cut off Israel, despite our laws, just as we have ended sanctions against both Pakistan and India. But it would make our hypocricy even more blatent, even in the United States.

	22-04-2004 17:51									#57
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Azazel, how so? The Arabs weren't aware that the Israelis had nukes then, were they? Did Israel really have nukes back that long ago?

	22-04-2004 17:57									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Isn't he hailed as a hero by everyone, anyway? Just look at the other thread. I think that he broke the law, on purpose, so there is nothing wrong with jailing him.

Why should you suddenly care about the law now, seeing as Israel breaks a number of international laws regarding the Palestinians every single day!?

How can you even type that with a straight face!!?

	22-04-2004 18:08									#59
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quote: Why should you suddenly care about the law now, seeing as Israel breaks a number of international laws regarding the Palestinians every single day!?

I am talking about a real law, you know, one that is enforced.

	22-04-2004 19:00									#60
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So in terms of Nukes in the ME, should Iran drop out of the NPT and openly declare an intention o develop nukes? After all, they have an openyl nuclear neighbor, unlike Irsae, and face hostility from two other nuclear states (Israel and the US)-and they lack a conventional superiority againt them so heck, Iran has as many valid reasons for NUkes as Israel has. And heck, they already face US sanctions, sho big whoop.