21-04-2004 21:44									#1
	Discussion thread - next build (for turn 30 start) Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

At work, so no real data to post other than our settler should be complete on turn 30, we will have a size 3 city (it just grew that turn), and we have a granary in the city with one lux and one MP.

Practical ideas include:
A worker
A warrior
A hoplite
A settler
Our future war machine (barracks and archers)

This is the place to discuss your ideas. The rate we are going we have about a week to decide.

MOI - GK

PS - Still working on the spreadsheet. E_T gave me some great ideas and I have to backtrack a ways to account for it

	21-04-2004 21:52									#2
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I think the next build should be "something-settler".

So I guess my question back to the MOI would be what can we get out, and then build a settler just in time to take advantage of pop growth but before our capitol goes into disorder?

	21-04-2004 23:05									#3
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Warrior or Hoplite is my vote. Just depends on what will take up enough "space" for us to get another settler out.

Of course, we could do two warriors...

--Togas

	22-04-2004 00:23									#4
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i need some builder whore to tell me how many turns it would take for a settler to complete after this one pops out. we'll be a 3 so we could technically pop out another settler rapidfire style, but we'd need a guard for it.

	22-04-2004 00:52									#5
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I'm fairly sure we should be alternating settlers with something else.

Oh if the city grows one turn before the settler builds and is about to go into disorder just hire a specalist for that turn. (Probably a taxmen.)

	22-04-2004 00:54									#6
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As to what to build: I'd prefer a Baracks over a military unit now so that future military starts as Vetrans. Also, there's still some forest to chop to speed up production.

	22-04-2004 01:26									#7
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after the settler is completed we will have +2 food and +6 shields OR +3 food and +5 shields (depending where will our wf be placed).
This means +30 shields or +20 shields (22 with some micromanagement) until the city grows again.

Maybe we can try to make barracks and after this settler, hoplite, settler, hoplite, ...

	22-04-2004 03:12									#8
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I think it depends greats on wether or not the oppertunity comes along to nab the CDG settler. If we do, then it has to be at least Warrior-Warrior-Settler. Possibly Warrior-Hoplite-Settler

	23-04-2004 02:27									#9
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One of my concerns is the growth factor of the city. We will grow to size four quickly (4 turns average - depends on the WF allocation), and then we either have to play with the lux slider (less research) or we have to play with tax men. The earliest we can buld a settler is 6 turns. I have not run the calcs (and trust me, I will do so before the decison is finalized, but in case someone else has the time feel free to do so) what I am thinking and leaning towards is a queue of:
warrior
worker
settler
barracks
hoplite
worker
worker
settler
to far to think
This should keep our population low enough to manage happieness, strong enough to build well, and generally keep things moving forward nicely. The issue is that we may become a little heavy on workers up front (working tiles that will not be needed for a while) but if so and if we feel it is worth it, we can always add them back into a city to speed its potential.

A trick I have done agains the AI in small maps, elimination games - produce one warrior, then 2-3 workers. Chop all wood nearby for a barracks and archers. Then add the workers back to the city so you go from size 2 to size 5-6. Then you out produce the early civs with your one city. Hurts long term planning, but is amazing for the short term as you have the ability to produce good military units every 1-2 turns, assemble an army, then kill the closest neighbor(s). Not really advocating this here (we have a defensive UU), just mentioning it for thinking about.

	23-04-2004 03:05									#10
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Can we work in more settlers earlier?

That is in my mind at least why we built the granary.

REX faster! If we are cooperating right now with CGN, with a possible attack later we need to build an economy as quickly as possible. And we have a jump on them right now that will be shaved since they have the first settler out of the box. But my guess is they did not build a granary.

Im not understating the importance of workers, they are one of most important if not the most important unit, but with this many workers this early we will be improving terrain before we can effectively get the WF to work it, or that is what my intuition is telling me without actually sim'ing it out.

With your plan we will have 4 workers working 2 cities (one being the capitol) before the third settler is produced. And the capitol is just about improved enough for the amount of population we are going to maintain in it for the foreseeable future.

Just some food for thought GK.

	23-04-2004 03:21									#11
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I'm with Ormund:

Baracks, Settler, Hoplite, Settler, Hoplite, Settler

And note that we don't have a have a city on +2 f +6 s or +3 f +5 s the whole peroid but can switch back and forth at any time between the two to prevent wasting shields and food.

	23-04-2004 22:32									#12
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Actually con, with what I had above, there would be two workers for two cities, then the third settler, then two more workers, then city number 4. That also assumes the other cities are not producing settlers themselves.

	23-04-2004 22:50									#13
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quote: Originally posted by GodKing Actually con, with what I had above, there would be two workers for two cities, then the third settler, then two more workers, then city number 4. That also assumes the other cities are not producing settlers themselves.

But why do we need two workers for the capitol? We have just about finished the improvements we need to effectively engage the work force thru the REX.

Thats my point. I see this as a choice between workers and settlers. I think we need more settlers than workers. Then get just enough workers to improve the tiles we need for the new cities as the WF grows.

Am I making sense here?

In other words produce just enough (and no more) workers to finish improving tiles right before WF growth needs to work that tile.

With four workers and the Capitol tiles already pretty much improved, Im thinking we will be working tiles that the WF will not need for a long time.

See what I mean here?

But with settlers we are growing the pop and getting more WF to work. Just make sure you have just enough workers to improve the tiles before the WF needs to work the tile.

Sort of like "Just in time improvements".

	24-04-2004 01:52									#14
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I strongly agree with conmcb25 that additional Settlers are more important right now than workers.

In fact my usual way to get workers unless I have a nearby city with a lot of flood plains is to have a newly founded city build a worker as soon as it finishes it's garision unit. (Or two garrision units if there's not much food present and/or it's near the border.)

In a fast growing city, this also has the side affect of making happiness easier to manage prior to getting connecting to the rest of the empire and luxary.

	24-04-2004 18:43									#15
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First - I like to keep 1 - 1.5 workers per city. This allows for the actual keeping up of growth and production. Remember - we will be in constant growth and expansion. Up until the age of Rail Roads (which I don't see us getting to in this game, as I suspect there will be two teams eliminated before then) I like to keep that ratio around, then after all cities are RRed start adding them back in, so that you have only 20-25 or so (mostly slaves, who cost nothing in maintance) to handle pollution and the occasional volcano eruption or bambardment of my shoreline.

Second - Who said anything about keeping both the workers near the capitol. We need only a couple of things done to that city - but will soon have city No.2 to build up. That city will just have a single road connecting it to our capitol when founded. We have lots of trees we can cut so as to get a barracks quick. We have lots of roading to do to get to the ivory and the flood plain sites, let alone a coastal site or the small desert to our rear for city No.6 (and yes, I am thinking that far). Want to have that ivory connected early? I know that I do. If we only have one worker - I don't see how we can do that unless we just have him roading only. I personally like to irrigate and mine.

Happieness. Huge problem. MP's are in my opinion usually just a wasted unit. It just sits there - not scouting, and beyond the first unit, not even defending, just sucking up some gold, shields to make them, and for what? Keeping the d@mn women folk from rioting in the streets!!! We have good population growth - almost too good. We will be growing faster than we can keep the people happy, and faster than we can knock down the pop with just settler/unit production. Workers keep the pop down, and they allow us to be productive in doing so. They only cost 10 shields. They can be added back into the cities when no longer needed.

This is why I think we need to keep adding in workers. Good prodcution is the key to winning Civ. Everybody here knows that. How better to have good production that to have a good work force that is capably handled?

	24-04-2004 22:02									#16
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We are talking about two different things here.

You are talking black and white.

Im talking tweaking to get us just in time delivery of workers. To maximize settler production for the core build out.

If its needed for pop control then of course do it, but A settler is pop control as well.

and the sooner we have more cities (settlers) the sooner we will need more workers.

	24-04-2004 22:46									#17
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Con: We're behind on our capitol city, which will soon send settlers out to found more cities that grow. I think we're beyond just-in-time production of workers; now we're on where-the-hell-were-you production of them. That said, workers are indeed useless without cities, and we still have plenty of city sites around our capitol that would be useful even without tile improvements, so settlers probably are a priority.

I'll post my opinions later when I have some time to look at the save.

	24-04-2004 23:46									#18
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Klo

I dont disagree

All Im saying is four workers for 2 cities when the first city is almost improved as much as we will need in the short term is intuitively overkill for me.

I know the worker is important.

Im just saying come up with a plan the has a worker improving a tile just as the WF needs it thats all.

If that four workers total before the third settler then so be it.

But intuitively Im thinking we need another settler first.

	24-04-2004 23:58									#19
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May I suggest something slightly different here:

Finish settler,
warrior,
settler,
worker,
barracks...

whatever happens after, I don't know. THe new cities can go something like this:

Warrior,
worker,
warrior/hoplite...

You have the first city site half developed, and the second can be developed quickly enough to facilitate quick build times. Apolytons pop is kept low enough so we dont have to use to much of the lux slider, while keeping it productive.

	25-04-2004 00:31									#20
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I'm all for finishing the settler then going:

worker
settler

Assuming our growth will allow this. I don't think we need a stong military at this point since CDG isn't that strong and they are the only one on our continent. C3C barbs are weak and we can deal with them at our leisure. We've explored the north quite well and can pull that warrior back to our core.

If our growth cannot support the worker/settler build then toss in a warrior.

Cities should be our priority to secure the ivory and build up a strong core.

	25-04-2004 01:09									#21
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quote: Originally posted by SirOsis Cities should be our priority to secure the ivory and build up a strong core.

BINGO!!!!!

I agree 100%!!

and all Im saying is consider delivering workrs just in time to improve the tiles as the WF needs to work them.

	25-04-2004 01:19									#22
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I don't think the barracks are good idea for the capitol (already). The capitol should produce only settlers and workers and the rest of the cities will build the warriors/hoplites/other mob

	25-04-2004 01:26									#23
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ormuzd, the capital is not capable of pumping out settlers and workers efficiently by themselves, so we have to build something else, even if it is only a warrior of to as MPs.

I don't want to build the barracks either, but it seems that every else wants to build it. That is why I added it to my build list.

	25-04-2004 02:07									#24
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On the support cost of miliaty units as police:
We are currently Despotic. That gives us 4 units support per city. (Yet another reason to concentrate on cities to increase number allowed.)
So devoting the 1 1/2 workers per city, 2 military units as police per city [max effective pre Monarchy], we still have 1/2 military unit as explorer left per city. Note that it appears to me that exploration of our starting landmass is starting to wind down.

	25-04-2004 08:03									#25
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I think fitting a barracks into the build queue is the prudent thing to do. Especially in this game, and despite our early good relations with our neighbours. I'm with joncnunn et al on this.

On the other hand - we do need sufficient workers to keep up with expansion.

I like Krill's plan. It seems to strike the right balance. Of course - it would have to be tweaked for shield and pop production.

	25-04-2004 10:59									#26
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My 2 cents (just like Krill's plan):
Warrior (2 turns)
Settler (5 turns with some forest work, which won't slow down growth)
Worker (2 turns thanks to growth)

But after this, keep doing pop units & warriors. I don't think we should sink 40 shields in to a barracks for a food pump, since warriors are pretty much all it can do between pop units anyway, especially with the shield-heavy settlers we want to pump out.

These reg warriors can be used for MP, scouting, etc.

	26-04-2004 01:39									#27
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What are we going to do with all these regular warriors, yes we can upgrae them them if iron is nearby but I sure would like some of them to be veterans.

	26-04-2004 05:01									#28
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Running a few sims, I am leaning towards this as the build queue. I will post complete results when I get them, as poly is in one of its bad moods now and is not letting me post and read much.....


Worker 2 turns
warrior 2 turns
settler 5 turns
settler 7 turns

In our second city - build queue of

barracks 15 turns (I am working on forest chop schedule to reduce this)
hoplite 4 turns
worker 2 turns
hoplite 4 turns

This scheme, however will not provide all the defensive units we would need, particularly if the barbs get randy or something else unfortunate should happen.

	26-04-2004 08:05									#29
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quote: Originally posted by GodKing Worker 2 turns warrior 2 turns settler 5 turns settler 7 turns

How would delaying the worker by switching the warrior and worker around affect things? The worker would be delayed 2 turns, but the warrior would be out sooner to attack any barbs that approached; and we get more commerce.

	26-04-2004 12:05									#30
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I was discussing this with Togas and Kloreep, in chat tonight. Togas got part of this before he went to bed, and Kloreep got the rest

First off, we have mainly desiced on the worker-warrior route.

Now, Because of happiness constraints and keeping out pop level up for faster SPT for REX/recovery, I was thinking of getting 1 to 2 more warriors our of poly before the Settler is built. This gives us basic units for the home front and for scouting purposes. Also, don't forget, we have a barb hanging around and are afraid of losing a warrior to an attack on it.

So, if we are so worried about losing one warrior, at this point in time, then we should build a couple of more.

E_T