21-04-2004 22:57									#1
	winning a all regular sid game? Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

i used to play (pre conquests) deity but only rarely (~10-15%) managed to win. now i'm back stuck somewhere between emperor and demigod.

with fascination is see all these bold people fighting and even winning the sid-level games.

but all games seem to have something in common: the great library is everything! most seem to prefer archipelagio too, although i have seen other games

now i was wondering if it's possible win sid in a game, where the GL is taboo for the human and the land mass is not archipelagio.

has anyone found and successfully used another strategy to get a sid game?

	21-04-2004 23:56									#2
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I guess we will soon see as it appears the 1.22 patch has altered your chances of getting the GL on Sid now. It was a lock before the patch. You could even do it without starting with Alphabet.

One issue (for me) is that you really need a large map to fare well at Sid and those get very tedious once you are ready to take down Civs on other land masses.

Last edited by vmxa1 on 23-04-2004 at 02:40

	22-04-2004 00:10									#3
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ok, the large (or better huge) is logical. with the AI starting with 4 (!!!) settlers you'd never have space for a second city on a tiny map

how has 1.22 been changed that the GL get's a higher priority? i can't see anything special (like flavour) in the editor and i doubt it's hardcoded.

	22-04-2004 01:46									#4
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To my knowelge there is no different AI behavior between levels and so at all levels the AI is going to proceed faster to Literature. It's just with Sid level the AI starts with 4 extra Settlers, 2 exta Workers, a lot of extra starting military units, plus has massive unit support bonsuses. (4 per city! And if that wasn't enough a very large constant)

Oh, and mass govt transition is either 1 or 2 for the AI at that level; equalvient to being Religious or better.

Of course the Sid level AI can run a Republic / Democracy with fast science with a lot of military units.

	22-04-2004 02:16									#5
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quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf how has 1.22 been changed that the GL get's a higher priority? i can't see anything special (like flavour) in the editor and i doubt it's hardcoded.

I don't know that it has been, but it was reported to have had an impact. I would guess that the removal of radio has altered things a bit. I will see as I am going to fire up one today.

	22-04-2004 02:21									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

joncnunn you are correct, there is only one AI and it uses the same logic for all levels. The levels do have an impact on how it conducts itself as it has the extra start units and a massive production bonus.

This lets it do things it would not normally do, such as building structures sooner than normal. It also speeds up research as it will have more cities right away and workers to do tile improvements.

The extra troops allows quicker contacts on non-island maps and reinforces the trade/research race. All those troops allows it to clear out huts and camps in a jiffy and gain the bennies and gold.

	22-04-2004 02:29									#7
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joncnunn, i also think you're right. the difference in the AIs reactions just result from different situations.

as sirpleb wrong in his sid-HOF game DAR, the GL may even be easier to get at sid than before because all other ancient wonders are often built before literature is known... so there's no fall-back-wonders if several were competing for the same one.

but my question to vmxa1 concerned why 1.22 would have changed the different strategy. removal of radio may be a reason, but it still seems strange...
"a kingdom for an insight into the AI algorithms"

good luck vmxa1!

	23-04-2004 02:48									#8
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quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf as sirpleb wrong in his sid-HOF game DAR, the GL may even be easier to get at sid than before because all other ancient wonders are often built before literature is known... so there's no fall-back-wonders if several were competing for the same one.

No he is not wrong in a 1.15 Sid game. You can get the GL with a reasonably well timed prebuild. It requires isolation of AI's to a degree and no SGL for them at a key time.

If you have pangea or even continents with the standard number of civs for the map, they will have 2-3 contacts at least and the research will race ahead.

The AI will not go hard for Lit, but it does not have to under those conditions.

I will not say you can not get the GL with pangea, but it will be be very hard, especially if there are any civs that start with Alphabet.

You could still beat them to Phil and take Lit (not easy), but they will be there soon and you may will not have the time and the city power to get that prebuild in place.

	23-04-2004 03:01									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Removal of Radio shouldn't have affected early game tactics.

I do think they've probably increased the AI value of structures that improve science, which would have the side affect of increasing it's priority of Literature which allows this.

What Radio's removal and the change in techs has decisvely done when I can demostate on my mod on Empeor level because I haven't updated to 1.22 yet but have implemented the Radio removal changes is that AI in the Industrial era wants to beeline at least to Mass Production and probably to Mobile Warfare. (Actually this is probably more of a removal of Electronics prereq from Mobile Warfare.) AI didn't even try to reserach Scientific Theory. If the AI had made half an effort it could have gotten Sci Theory in time to switch it's build of Universal Suffrage to Theory of Evolution when I beat the AI by two turns to US. Instead it lost a lot of shields and I went on to build Theory of Evolution in my GA in nine turns from scratch and most of Hoover Dam during the GA as well. Needed two turns to finish upon leaving the GA.

quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf joncnunn, i also think you're right. the difference in the AIs reactions just result from different situations. as sirpleb wrong in his sid-HOF game DAR, the GL may even be easier to get at sid than before because all other ancient wonders are often built before literature is known... so there's no fall-back-wonders if several were competing for the same one. but my question to vmxa1 concerned why 1.22 would have changed the different strategy. removal of radio may be a reason, but it still seems strange... "a kingdom for an insight into the AI algorithms" good luck vmxa1!

	23-04-2004 11:26									#10
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Just for the record, I was able to get the GL on 1.22 Sid with no real strain. The civs were not real isolated either.

I say that as I found Aztecs on my island, which was empty. I could tell as they did not have any cities over 2 or 3 size. No capitol.

I saw 4 other civs nearby with a curragh and they had galleys about. So at least a few knew each other.

Anyway I researched Masonary for a palace prebuild, but it was a waste as I did not use it. The city I used was not very good at shields either. No bonus grassland at all or 1 (IIRC). I did writing and then Phil and took Lit for free. I switched my granary build in that city to the GL and started adding in workers. I did only one thing, I had workers mine all tiles it would use and ready to join the city at that point.

I added in 7 workers and grew the last one and beat the Aztecs to the GL. They started after I did and I doubt they had a full city.

This not conclusive, but I would think a better city or a proper prebuild would cover any issues. BTW the city I used was the 4th one I founded. I did not have much in the way of grass or BG tiles on any of them.

	26-04-2004 15:49									#11
	Re: winning a all regular sid game? Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf now i was wondering if it's possible win sid in a game, where the GL is taboo for the human and the land mass is not archipelagio. has anyone found and successfully used another strategy to get a sid game?

First thing first: let's win at Sid. Period. Any landmass, any civ, any GL, any acceptable 'trick', just 1 win at Sid!

Then, put on a bored face as 'Sid? Piece of cake, I can win while sleeping', and start putting spokes in your weels: no GL, pangea, minimap, 15 civs etc.

In the meantime, I'll stick to the first thing first...

	26-04-2004 18:08									#12
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ok, if anyone wins your proposal, the AI must have been stuck in a pure tundra map and barbarians killed 3 of 4 of their starting settlers

what i intended asking in my original question was actually just "can you win sid without GL on a standard map?"

	26-04-2004 21:23									#13
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Let me modify my statement able getting the GL with 1.22. It seems that it is not as easy on a huge map. The increase research cost makes it harder for the human. I tried it will a slow pace on Writing and all out on Philosophy, but that failed.

I will see if going all out from the start is good enough to win the beeline. My concern is that is they are able to get Lit soon you will be hard pressed to build the GL before them. No prebuild is available. I will sell my granary with 5 or 6 turns to go and rebuild it as a small head start and add in enough workers to get to size 12 at that time. If I can get 20 or so shields a turn and say 58 shields in the box, maybe I can do it.

The way to get near 60 shields is to start the build so it will finish the same turn as you learn Phil. Then the turn before take 1 or 2 workers off tiles to bump the build out one more turn.

	27-04-2004 12:40									#14
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I dunno.
I just played 2 games on Sid and a few tries. the first one was with the Dutch (see my thread) and played one with the GL and one without.
If you trade cleverly, you don't need the GL, especially if most of the other civs go for Polytheism and then Education. The usefulness of the GL is then short-lived.

In my 3-4 trials prior to my game (on 1.22), the AI went strait for Writing, then for Map Making and Philosophy.

The only sure way to get the GLibrary is by having Alphabet as a start tech, go for Writing at the 50 tuns pace and then go for Philosophy at 100% research (and manage the usual problems of happiness etc.).

Once you pick up Literature as your free tech, you switch then to your Palace pre-built.

That one seems mandatory. You really have to set aside your 2nd city for wonders building. That means size 8 at least and all tiles worked, plus a granary and a temple.

In other words, forget about rexxing until you get the GLibrary. This is why I don't see how you can do that on another setting that archipelago, unless you play to win an OCC game on Sid

BTW, never, ever sell Writing and pick up the weakest-looking civ to sell Alphabet and get masonry and pottery.

	27-04-2004 21:27									#15
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That sounds nice, but in this game I had the GL built before I made a single contact and hence no Masonary, no prebuild via palace.

First contact was in 250BC and that was when I found the Zulu had landed. I found out that there were two other civs closer to me, but the Zulu got the Lighthouse.

On a large map you may have trouble finding a civ to trade to in time to have anything but writing and that means no trading in my book.