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vovan
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EDIT: Ah, never mind.
Last edited by vovan on 26-04-2004 at 09:07
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okblacke
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quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Game design is an art, not a science. So it's pretty subjective to whether his book sucks or not. |
All things are subjective. Just ask Heisenberg.
However, the book could be considered a failure if it didn't teach anything about game design. Or if it taught relatively little compared to "how great I am".
quote:
Sid always goes by the fun factor, but Chris Crawford might want to present something thought-provoking to the player (e.g. Balance of Power) even if the subject itself does not lend itself to fun. |
The "fun factor" doesn't , IMO, have anything to do with subject matter, although some subject matter can be so distasteful that the audience rejects it out of hand (cf. "Postal" for some folks).
There is a "doingness" associated with a game. You could call it the interface, though that's not quite broad enough. Bullfrog was very good at this sort of thing: Many of their last games were rather shallow (DK2, P:TB, TPW) but they rewarded incresaed proficiency with all kinds of cool things.
quote:
Chris Crawford is generally held to be one of the early greats due to the groundbreaking work he did. |
He wasn't that early. He wasn't that great. 
No, seriously, what's he got...Balance of Power? SimEarth? Patton? What's so ground-breaking about these games? All between 1985-1990.
From a historical standpoint, I would consider him a fairly minor early-middle developer. I don't see a huge range of influence. I don't see games today that I can trace back to him.
I can pick up any adventure game and trace it back to Crowther and Woods, the Infocom devteam, even the Myst bros.; I can trace the real-time RPG trend back through Diablo, Nethack, Rogue and Beneath Apple Manor; I can see Civ's roots in Hamurabi, Empire, etc., and trace them forward to Rise of Nations, etc. Silas Warner did the first FPS that I know back around 1980; he also did (top-down) Castle Wolfenstein--his influence is clear.
Seriously, dude. Irrespective of any good ideas Crawford has, his most important contribution to the gaming world is probably the book, where he boldly and baldly suggests games can rise to the level of art.
But actual games? Erasmatron's been out for 6 years: It hasn't revolutionized the game industry.
I'm rootin' for him, but I don't see him as a legendary figure. Not yet, anyway.
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okblacke
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Not to continue an overly long rant, but I was thinking of the REAL giants in the early days of the field:
Dani Bunten
John Freeman
Silas Warner
Dave Lebling
Don D. Worth
Michael Berlyn
Infocom (Lebling, Berlyn, Meretzky, et. al.) were really pushing the envelope artistically, and making money at it for quite some time.
Not to mention a bunch of others I've already lamented--I just don't see Crawford as standing shoulder to shoulder with these guys, or with Will Wright, Molyneux, Sid, Romero. Even John Carmack, with his spectacular flops, had a bunch of good titles under his belt and even in failing made a lasting impression on the community.
OK, sorry, rant mode off.
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Urban Ranger
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Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic
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quote:
Originally posted by okblacke
No, seriously, what's he got...Balance of Power? |
The groundbreaking part about Balance of Power is the subject matter. To a lesser degree, how the game is played. The player has to walk a tight rope to achieve his goals, and this certainly influenced quite a number of games later on.
quote:
Originally posted by okblacke
I don't see games today that I can trace back to him. |
These games aren't that numerous. Former efforts include Ashes of Empire and Shadow President.
quote:
Originally posted by okblacke
I can trace the real-time RPG trend back through Diablo, Nethack, Rogue and Beneath Apple Manor |
rogue isn't a real-time RPG. rogue is the granddaddy of all rogue-like games, which were originally ASCII based dungeon crawls but included surface areas as well later on.
quote:
Originally posted by okblacke
I can see Civ's roots in Hamurabi, Empire, etc., and trace them forward to Rise of Nations, etc. |
Empire? No. It's just a war game.
quote:
Originally posted by okblacke
Silas Warner did the first FPS that I know back around 1980; he also did (top-down) Castle Wolfenstein--his influence is clear. |
I fail to see the importance of Castle Wolfenstein. Return to Castle Wolfenstein, id's first FPS, has nothing to do with the original game other than the name and the setting.
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vovan
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quote:
Originally posted by Rasbelin
Sierra Interactive (all the great Caesar games)... |
These were only published by Sierra. They were developed by Impressions Games, which I thought were still in business, as they developed the "Lords of the Realm III", which was released a little over a month ago. But somehow their website URL redirects straight to VU, which didn use to happen before, so I don't know if that was their last game or what.
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okblacke
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quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger
The groundbreaking part about Balance of Power is the subject matter. |
What, cold war? International politics? I don't think so.
quote:
To a lesser degree, how the game is played. The player has to walk a tight rope to achieve his goals, and this certainly influenced quite a number of games later on. |
Too general. You had to walk a tightrope in "Camel".
quote:
These games aren't that numerous. Former efforts include Ashes of Empire and Shadow President. |
Mmmmm. Superpower. 
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rogue isn't a real-time RPG. |
Well, duh. That's an almost superficial difference. Diablo is a direct (intentional) rip-off of Nethack.
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rogue is the granddaddy of all rogue-like games |
Actually, "Beneath Apple Manor" predates Rogue by about 2 years. Longer, if you're counting microcomputer availability.
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Empire? No. It's just a war game. |
I'm muddling it with some other ca 1984 game. Castles? Hamurabi had some successors that remind me more of Civ, with city-sites, etc.
Now, the $64 question: What was the first game with a tech tree? Not a role-playing power-up individual deal, but one where the tech tree had a broad (somewhat abstract) impact on play.
quote:
I fail to see the importance of Castle Wolfenstein. Return to Castle Wolfenstein, id's first FPS, has nothing to do with the original game other than the name and the setting. |
The final product, yes. In development, many aspects were derived directly from Silas Warner's origiinal game. Those were dropped to streamline the play perhaps spurring John Romero's "design is law" creed, his departure from id, and the subsequent spectacular failure of G.O.D.
OK, maybe that's stretching it, but how about this quote from Romero himself?
"Wolfenstein 3D took 6 months to develop from start to finish. When we started kicking around ideas for a theme for a 3D shooter, we thought about a science lab full of runaway mutants and you have to rescue the scientists and stuff. I thought that was a really lame idea so I said, "Let's do Castle Wolfenstein in 3D!" It was an immediate hit with everyone at id because we had all played Silas Warner's seminal action game."
Heheheh---he said "seminal".
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Urban Ranger
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Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic
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quote:
Originally posted by okblacke
What, cold war? International politics? I don't think so. |
If not, please point out an earlier game that deals with the same subject matter.
quote:
Originally posted by okblacke
Well, duh. That's an almost superficial difference. Diablo is a direct (intentional) rip-off of Nethack. |
Diablo is much worse than nethack in many ways. 
quote:
Originally posted by okblacke
Actually, "Beneath Apple Manor" predates Rogue by about 2 years. Longer, if you're counting microcomputer availability. |
I don't think so. Bill Joy wrote rogue when he was a graduate student for Unix, some time in the mid 1970's.
quote:
Originally posted by okblacke
The final product, yes. In development, many aspects were derived directly from Silas Warner's origiinal game. Those were dropped to streamline the play perhaps spurring John Romero's "design is law" creed, his departure from id, and the subsequent spectacular failure of G.O.D.
OK, maybe that's stretching it, but how about this quote from Romero himself?
"Wolfenstein 3D took 6 months to develop from start to finish. When we started kicking around ideas for a theme for a 3D shooter, we thought about a science lab full of runaway mutants and you have to rescue the scientists and stuff. I thought that was a really lame idea so I said, "Let's do Castle Wolfenstein in 3D!" It was an immediate hit with everyone at id because we had all played Silas Warner's seminal action game."
Heheheh---he said "seminal". |
Let me get this straight. First you dissed Romero, then you quoted him to support your position? Please, make up your mind first.
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vovan
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quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger
I don't think so. Bill Joy wrote rogue when he was a graduate student for Unix, some time in the mid 1970's. |
1980 to be precise. And Bill Joy had nothing to do with it. He founded Sun, but didn't code Rogue. The thing was written by Ken Arnold, Michael Toy, and Glenn Wichman.
Brief Rogue History by Glenn Wichman
1980 is still before 1983, which is when "Beneath Apple Manor" was released, though, so you are correct there. 1983 is also when Rogue was ported to DOS...
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okblacke
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quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger
If not, please point out an earlier game that deals with the same subject matter. |
Ooh. I'll have to think about it. There was a company that made these offbeat (text-based) simulations for the Apple ][. One of them, for example, was to manage a television network (sort of presaging Molyneux's Hollywood). Another was a financial sim called "Windfall".
I think they also did one on the Cold War--specifically a US v. Soviet battle. It might've been called "Cold War"...gimme time, this was a few years ago.
There was another game that used a world map--hi-res B&W map...
Unfortunately, a lot of these games are completely lost except to my memory. 
There was a game by a company called "Synergistic Software" called "Wilderness Campaign". The first strategy/fantasy game I can recall--sort of a "Heroes of Might & Magic" progenitor. A blast. I can't even find that one recognized on the web.
quote:
Diablo is much worse than nethack in many ways. |
Yes. And better in others. Probably. Maybe. Maybe not.
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I don't think so. Bill Joy wrote rogue when he was a graduate student for Unix, some time in the mid 1970's. |
Double-flunk! See my correction below.
quote:
Let me get this straight. First you dissed Romero, then you quoted him to support your position? Please, make up your mind first. |
I don't think I dissed him. Did I? G.O.D.'s failure was spectacular but that's just an observation. They did make some good games, and I actually have no quarrel with "design is law"--though I sort of think there should be bicameral situation with "reality is law" on the other side. :-)
In any event, whatever his merits as designer, game company founder or human being, he certainly knows the influence of the original "Wolfenstein".
So, yeah, he supports my position better than any speculation, given that he was, you know, there. I'm pretty sure Carmack's on record, too about the influence of old games.
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okblacke
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quote:
Originally posted by vovan
1980 to be precise. And Bill Joy had nothing to do with it. He founded Sun, but didn't code Rogue. The thing was written by Ken Arnold, Michael Toy, and Glenn Wichman.
Brief Rogue History by Glenn Wichman
Correct!
[QUOTE]1980 is still before 1983, which is when "Beneath Apple Manor" was released, though, so you are correct there. 1983 is also when Rogue was ported to DOS... |
Incorrect!
Beneath Apple Manor for the PC may have been released in 1983--but I was playing it on the Apple ][ in 1979. A friend of mine just spoke with the author who says it was released in 1978.
It was the first rogue-like. And perhaps the first demonstration of the power of open source over tightly-controlled code.
BAM would probably be famous and still extant in some form had it been developed in a more open environment, a la rogue.
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25-04-2004 02:46
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