26-04-2004 01:27									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns The major problem is these types of games are only fun when you have massive amounts of free time, and you only have massive amounts of free time if you don't have a job. In that case, $10 a month is worth way more to you than to someone who works.

Well, it's a matter of vices, I suppose. If you don't waste any money on booze and drugs (like me) You can justify paying for broadband and online games.

quote: Because in a rpg you want to keep your character around. You don't want him to die after you play just 2 months. You may want to pick him up again. so in order to keep your character alive if you want to play him again, you have to keep paying.

All the MMORPGs keep your character around if you unsubscribe. Some have a limit to how long they'll keep it, though. Everquest is six months, I think, but as far as I know shadowbane keeps them around forever.

	26-04-2004 01:33									#32
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The only MMRPGWhatever game I've been interested in is City of Heroes (Each player is a superhero who fights villaints )... the game will be released in a few days as far as I know... too bad it has a monthly price, which I'm not interested in paying

	26-04-2004 01:57									#33
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Is World of Warcraft going to be subscription based?

	26-04-2004 02:19									#34
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Of course.

	26-04-2004 02:22									#35
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I sort of guessed, but then WC3 and Diablo2 don't require anything. Any idea whereabouts in the discussion above WoW will fit into?

	26-04-2004 02:31									#36
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WC3 and Diablo don't have to maintain persistent worlds with 1000s of people playing simulaneously.


Anyways, I haven't been following WoW too closely but from what I've heard it's going to be similiar to DAoC - a well rounded game with a bit of everything. The combat and level progression is supposedly similiar to diablo, in that you're consistently rewarded as you fight, instead of camping the same spawn for hours on end to get a decent weapon or go up a level (like in some games). From what I understand it will have limited PvP, in a smiliar style to DAoC -with it being horde vs. alliance, with the races of the two 'teams' working together and unable to hurt each other. I've heard something about the PvP having "strategic" aspect, but I don't really know what that means. Probably resources and such that you can capture to gain bonuses for your side, similiar to the relics in DAoC. (But probably better designed)

	26-04-2004 02:34									#37
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So it's team based? The only game I've really seen in this genre is Eve, which some of my friends play. They pretty much do their own thing, though there is a grand scale war going on with 2 factions I think.

Also I've never played Diablo.......what do you mean it is not a persistent world?

	26-04-2004 03:20									#38
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike Also I've never played Diablo.......what do you mean it is not a persistent world?

You've never played diablo? You always struck me as the 'hard-core gamer' type. How could you not have played that?


When you play diablo, you're just creating a new game which is limited to only a few people being able to play in (6 or 8?) Every game you start takes the same path (ie. the same dialouge and bosses, over and over and over in a loop - you're basically playing the single player game with other people) and when everyone logs out, the "world" that was created is gone.

MMOGs, on the other hand, have servers running 24/7 in which everyone plays in at the same time. When you log out the world keeps on going, along with all the other 'inhabitants' - ie, the other players.

There are some MMOGs that take the idea of a persistent world further by letting you leave your mark on it, like in Shadowbane where you are able to build and demolish cities. And then there's Atriarch which wants to create a world that doesn't even need players to opperate - where your character stays within the world 24/7 with instructions left from you on how to behave when you aren't controling it. (atleast this was the plan last time I checked - which was about 2 or 3 years ago while it was still in the conceptual phase)

	26-04-2004 03:26									#39
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By the way, DAoC is also teambased (obviously) only it has three teams. Everquest also has some team PvP servers - one divided by races and one divided by the alignment of your chosen god. Shadowbane is also team based in a sense, only the teams are created by the players - it's absolutely neccisary to join a guild in that game, and guilds inevtiably end up fighting and competing against each other, usually trying to destroy each other's cities for whatever reasons. (usually revenge for being 'ganked', or somethign equally trivial)

	26-04-2004 04:18									#40
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd You've never played diablo? You always struck me as the 'hard-core gamer' type. How could you not have played that?

I am, but if you want to be competitive in a MP game you can't spread yourself too thin. I've never got around to it.

I still don't quite get it though.........why do people buy items online and cry when they lose their high level characters if it is just glorified SP?

	26-04-2004 05:05									#41
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because they are losers

I could never see buying items.

I have never had good items in Diablo2. I have no idea how people get these uber items. I just like building up my character and killing things. I can get some decent items, but never any of those super good items. Of course I have never played any hell difficulty level games either.

Diablo2 (which is what we're talking about) has 2 battle.net servers. On one, they store your character on their own server (to try to prevent cheating). You can choose a character (they let you have up to 5) and then elect to either join a game or create your own game. The maps are randomly generated (except for a few), and monsters and items are also randomly generated. The quests in Diablo are pretty basic, it's not too hard to keep them straight. If you join someone else's game and they have completed those quests, then you can't complete those quests (although you may be able to if they are in a different act). Explaining the quests can be kind of confusing, but as I said, depending on who created the game, and what quests they have completed in the current game, and what quests they have completed in prior games determines what quests you can do.

They have tweaked it quite a bit over the years. Now, more than ever they have encouraged team play. I find team play to be enjoyable for the most part- although almost everyone goes too fast for my tase. But sometimes it's fun going fast, you can fly through acts, quests, and levels.

	26-04-2004 05:21									#42
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some people are really freakish at these games... I've heard of people buying Everquest characters for thousands of dollars...

crazy

	26-04-2004 05:30									#43
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike I still don't quite get it though.........why do people buy items online and cry when they lose their high level characters if it is just glorified SP?

The people who buy items online either have money to throw away and want a short cut to the 'good stuff', or they are in a social competition and want to impress people. Just like some people buy nikes or sports cars or whatever to earn respect in real life, they do the same in the game world. (MMOGs are very social games, afterall.)

As for losing high level characters... there aren't actually any MMORPGs that use perma-death at the moment (but there are a few in development) so you can't really lose high level characters outside of some sort of database error. But you can sometimes lose items, usually as a result of someone 'scamming' you (ie. you being naive ) and the reasons someone would cry about that are usually that the really high-end stuff in these games takes an enormous amount of time and effort to get. (think of people camping a spawn point for 24 hours straight to get a single item in Everquest *shudder* )


A funny thing about someone with too much money came to mind while typing this. In DAoC there was a guy who had 8 computers and 8 accounts and would simultaneously play all of them at the same time. He set up the computers somehow so that he could press a single button and all of the characters would attack / cast spells at the same target. He was a one man army. (actually, I'm sure it sucked for everyone outside of his realm. Those sorts of people can often be the deciding factor in PvP conflicts )

	26-04-2004 07:26									#44
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Database errors are the worst thing for these type of games though. Nothing is worse than playing for 8 hours straight only to have the admins of the game post "Ooops, database error". 8 whole hours you have put into the game gone just like that. In some instances, I have heard that the last usable backup was a week old.

	26-04-2004 18:01									#45
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Yeah that must really blow. They must have a backup system in place though........I think Eve does.

	26-04-2004 18:33									#46
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I basically speak from Dransik experience. They did updates semi-regularly, but due to it being a beta they were constantly changing code in the software. As a result bugs could appear that would render all the latest backups unusable. The largest one I witnessed, as mentioned before, was a timewarp of a whole week. A significant portion of players stopped playing after that incident.

	26-04-2004 22:36									#47
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike I am, but if you want to be competitive in a MP game you can't spread yourself too thin. I've never got around to it. I still don't quite get it though.........why do people buy items online and cry when they lose their high level characters if it is just glorified SP?

diablo isnt a competitive game.
I played d2 "hardcore". I have absolutely no skill in that game.

I just wasted 100000000000 hrs on getting a good character thats all.

Disclaimer: some ppl do play hardcore and have skills. (PvP players) but they are so rare species... especially with d2 game design making it so hard for you to engage in PvP...

MMORPG IS glorified SP that u play with other ppl. ha!

	26-04-2004 22:44									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident because they are losers I could never see buying items. I have never had good items in Diablo2. I have no idea how people get these uber items. I just like building up my character and killing things. I can get some decent items, but never any of those super good items. Of course I have never played any hell difficulty level games either.

well supply meets demand. you want it badly, we supply it.. for the right cost. if u dont want it then we dont supply it. simple.

You just gotta play it differently. You have to know how the game works or just copy the way someone who knows how it works plays.

This involves increasing magic find % and doing high percentage yield runs over an over and over again.

it also doesnt hurt sharing an acct with friends instead of having sepearate characters each.

	26-04-2004 22:49									#49
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So you get a high level character by a process that doesn't really sound all that entertaining. Then what?

	26-04-2004 23:37									#50
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike So you get a high level character by a process that doesn't really sound all that entertaining. Then what?

MMORPGs actually cater to a wide variety of players. For some people, geting a high level character is the end all be all. They have fun just killing **** endlessly to raise stats, and they don't care if they have to sit in the same damn place and kill the same damn monsters all day long to do it. (This is most pronounced in Everquest... and Diablo, if you want to include that)

Some people play it for the social aspect, and leveling their characters is really only done so that they can keep up with their friends, and hunt together ect... Often these are the sort of people who also focus in trade skills and can be found buming around town chatting and making goods to sell.

Some people play it for adventure, and like to go on raids and explore dungeons, ect... for them leveling up is fun because it's exciting. This is different from the first in that they don't really like "camping" spawn points - they like going through the entire dungeon with a large group of people and killing everything. (I think this is most pronounced in DAoC, there would usually be organized raids on various dungeons daily with sometimes 100s of people taking part - which neccisary to kill the most powerful monsters, like dragons. )

And, of course, some people play it for the PvP and only level up so that they can compete against other people.

Of course, it also depends on the game, since each one tends to cater to a slightly different audience. (The social players and campers from EQ certainly wouldn't get along very well with the powergamers and playerkillers of Shadowbane, for instance)


And as for you question about "then what?" well, that's often a problem in these games. Asheron's Call answers is by having no level cap - there's no limit to how powerful you can get, so the the question never comes up. Everquest answers it by making the process so long and tedious that most people don't get a question to ask it, but for those who do, there are the planar raids which only the highest levels can ever get a chance to see. DAoC answers it with PvP - once you get to a high level you can start taking part in the realm vs. realm warfare. And Shadowbane... well, it doesn't answer it, and that's often the biggest complaint about the game... although most people will just keep on making new characters and going through the process over and over (Partly for somethign to do and partly to keep up with the PvP trends or to try out new character templates).

	27-04-2004 00:07									#51
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I just want adventure in a social setting. I dislike powergaming, although I don't make weak characters. I do make strong builds, I don't like to struggle to kill things. But I don't obsess over getting every stat and skill just right.

So what game is good for that?

	27-04-2004 00:30									#52
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I would say DAoC.


EDIT: There isn't alot of room for powergaming in it. The amount of input you have into how your character developes is minimal outside of the race and class you choose. Of course, this can be a downside if you like to have unique characters.

	27-04-2004 01:11									#53
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I once spent a bunch of time playing on a MUD (multi-user dungeon or multi-user domain). It was pretty small, free, and was text-only. No graphics.

It was fun, though, at least for a little while. It also happened to suck up a lot of time. Plus, between my dialup connection and the MUD's iffy server, there tended to be lag problems... everyone there knew the agony of lag death.

flee *enter*
flee *enter*
flee *enter*

nothing...

then, in a rush:

Ra the Sun God's BRUTAL thrust scratches you!
Ra the Sun God's BRUTAL thrust Wounds you!
Ra the Sun God's BRUTAL thrust Wounds you!
Ra the Sun God's BRUTAL thrust *MANGLES* you!
Ra the Sun God's HORRIFIC Fire Breath ANNIHILATES you! You are DEAD!

Flee from whom?
Flee from whom?
Flee from whom?

Heh, I did have some fun with it. My characters are probably all toast by now. It's been years since I logged on. Hell, for all I know the site is dead.

-Arrian

Last edited by Arrian on 27-04-2004 at 01:25

	28-04-2004 05:27									#54
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Awhile back, I bought a $10 version of Everquest which came with a free month of playing.

The first time I "spawned" it was the middle of the night & I was facing a wall...so I couldn't see and I couldn't walk forward. I was purplexed.

Once I got the game going, I was so weak, I could only go out and fight rats. yippie.

It was kind of cool travelling around & seeing stuff. But I couldn't invest much time in the game, so I ended the month still killing the occasional rat.

Once I fell off a pier while wandering around in the middle of the night. I spent at least an hour trying to find my way out from under that #@*&^%!! pier in the dark. No fun.

I recommend a good game of Morrowind instead.

	28-04-2004 05:33									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler Once I fell off a pier while wandering around in the middle of the night. I spent at least an hour trying to find my way out from under that #@*&^%!! pier in the dark. No fun.

Ah... brings back memories. I remember knocking dwarves off the tree city Kelethin and watching them plummet to their deaths. (alright, I couldn't actually knock them off... instead, I would blind them and watch them run off the platform while doing the 'chicken with it's head cut off' impersination that alot of people do when they're blinded.)

	28-04-2004 13:47									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler Awhile back, I bought a $10 version of Everquest which came with a free month of playing. The first time I "spawned" it was the middle of the night & I was facing a wall...so I couldn't see and I couldn't walk forward. I was purplexed. Once I got the game going, I was so weak, I could only go out and fight rats. yippie. It was kind of cool travelling around & seeing stuff. But I couldn't invest much time in the game, so I ended the month still killing the occasional rat. Once I fell off a pier while wandering around in the middle of the night. I spent at least an hour trying to find my way out from under that #@*&^%!! pier in the dark. No fun.

Sounds great.

I suppose these are games it's hard to get into if you don't have bags of time to play.

	28-04-2004 16:23									#57
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By the way, this is why I would suggest avoiding Everquest like the plague. It is by far the most tedious and frustrating MMORPG in existence. It also requires the largest amount of time to get anywhere.

	28-04-2004 16:28									#58
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What was that game that Skanky and others were playing a few months back? I remember that they had a thread in OT, and seemed to give one another loads of money all the time, which seemed to be a bit naughty, but you have to look after your fellow 'polytubbies don't you.

	28-04-2004 16:33									#59
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There are steep initial learning curves for these types of games. I remeber my first character in Dransik was born a fighter and struggled to kill rats and bats and ... spiders. Gathering a large load of their meat, I sold enough to buy a slightly better dagger which enabled me to hunt for longer. Soon I could get cloth armour, then after days of real-time playing, I could eventually afford some of the cheaper leather armour...

The second time through, my character was a miner. Not only was this the quickest activity to gain experience points, but ore sold very well and you could gain massive amounts quite quickly. Before I was level 2 my character had full chainmail armour and the best sword you could buy on "newbie island".

	28-04-2004 16:35									#60
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quote: Originally posted by duke o' york What was that game that Skanky and others were playing a few months back? I remember that they had a thread in OT, and seemed to give one another loads of money all the time, which seemed to be a bit naughty, but you have to look after your fellow 'polytubbies don't you.

That "game" was "Legend of the Green Dragon", iirc. It was a webbased game though. Still, fun for what it was, not that I'm going to start playing it again.