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Dis
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Las Vegas, Nevada
Feb 2000
time: 21:35
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I better edit this post as well
Last edited by Dis on 24-04-2004 at 11:10
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Dis
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Las Vegas, Nevada
Feb 2000
time: 21:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Whaleboy
People will generally die for what they love. I don't love my nation or my religion because those are artificial constructs and I'm not about to let myself get wasted for the ideas of other men. I'd die to defend myself or those I love however, but that does not entail international conflict, so no dice. Your little tirade, the attempt to call me a freeloaded is just BS.
I agree there is nothing separating him from any others, and loss of human life is always a tragedy, especially when these men are so young. Nonetheless, I'm not about to get all happy clappy about their decision to fight. Nonetheless, they are human first, flag ****ers second. |
you just don't get it do you? Even if you don't believe in nations, other countries do. And they will organize and will conquer you. What are you going to do when an army of 2 million threatens you or your family?
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The Mad Monk
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of Ice Cream
Mar 2000
time: 23:35
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quote:
RANGER CREED
Recognizing that I volunteered as a Ranger, fully knowing the hazards of my chosen profession, I will always endeavor to uphold the prestige, honor, and high esprit de corps of the Rangers.
Acknowledging the fact that a Ranger is a more elite soldier who arrives at the cutting edge of battle by land, sea, or air, I accept the fact that as a Ranger my country expects me to move further, faster, and fight harder than any other soldier.
Never shall I fail my comrades I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong, and morally straight and I will shoulder more than my share of the task whatever it may be, one hundred percent and then some.
Gallantly will I show the world that I am a specially selected and well trained soldier. My courtesy to superior officers, neatness of dress, and care of equipment shall set the example for others to follow.
Energetically will I meet the enemies of my country. I shall defeat them on the field of battle for I am better trained and will fight with all my might. Surrender is not a Ranger word. I will never leave a fallen comrade to fall into the hands of the enemy and under no circumstances will I ever embarrass my country.
Readily will I display the intestinal fortitude required to fight on to the Ranger objective and complete the mission, though I be the lone survivor.
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The Mad Monk
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of Ice Cream
Mar 2000
time: 23:35
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quote:
22:10 MST 4/23/04
I pray that our Heavenly Father may assuage the anguish of your bereavement,
and leave you only the cherished memory of the loved and lost, and the solemn pride that must be yours, to have laid so costly a sacrifice upon the altar of Freedom.
-- Abraham Lincoln, November 1864
Tackling terrorism
Many touched by Tillman's sacrifice
Tim Tyers
The Arizona Republic
Sep. 11, 2002
Former Cardinals safety Pat Tillman turned his back on a three-year, $3.6 million contract and enlisted in the U.S. Army with designs on becoming a Ranger.
He was newly married, with a chance for lifetime financial security. But those close to him say he had wanted to make a difference since the terrorist attacks last Sept. 11.
He hasn't been heard from in the media since making his decision in May.
Tillman, who became a Cardinal after a celebrated career at Arizona State, has refused all requests to talk about his decision to trade training camp for basic training, which started in July. But it hasn't stopped others from saluting his effort.
"God love him. America is lucky to have guys like him," Diamondbacks first baseman Mark Grace said. "It's beyond impressive."
Randy Reid/The Arizona Republic
Pat Tillman gave up a $3.6 million contract with the Cardinals to enlist in the U.S. Army.
Tillman has sworn family and friends to codes of silence. They say little, largely because Tillman has told them he wants to achieve his Ranger goal before talking. The Army is shielding him from the media, despite numerous national requests.
Often forgotten is that Tillman's younger brother, Kevin, who played baseball at ASU and was in the Cleveland Indians organization, enlisted with him. When people approach their father, attorney Pat Tillman Sr., and praise the sacrifice his celebrated son has made, he holds up two fingers.
"He and his brother are doing well and have risen to every challenge presented to them," said Elsi Jackson, a civilian public affairs officer at Fort Benning, Ga.
Jackson said the Tillmans will complete advanced individual training at the end of October, then go to a three-week parachute training course, followed by a three-week Ranger regimen course. They'll be assigned to a unit in January for nine to 12 months before returning to Ranger school.
"I've talked to his wife (Marie), and I got a letter from Pat," Cardinals defensive coordinator Larry Marmie said. "He's doing well. Everything was positive. He just talked about the work they've been through. He wished us the best and wanted to tell everybody hello."
The question posed by many in our cash-crazed society is: Why would somebody with the world at his fingers make such a sacrifice? In a recent article, the New York Times suggested that Tillman lost friends in the twin towers disaster and that spurred his decision.
Family members have said this is not the case.
"He told me it was a lot of things," Marmie said. "It was something he had thought about for a long time. He felt he had lived a very comfortable life and in some way - now this isn't word for word - he needed, not wanted, to pay someone back. He felt that he was in debt to somebody for the kind of life he had up to this point.
"He is a very, very intelligent guy who is all about challenges. I don't think he was a highly recruited guy to Arizona State, but he came to ASU because somebody saw something in him. But he came and proved himself there, and he certainly had to prove himself at this level and at another position.
"A couple of summers ago, he came to me and said he was going to run a marathon and did, and the next summer he said he was going to do a triathlon and did."
Others close to the Tillman brothers said neither of them "wants stuff happening in their back yard," a reference to the terrorist attacks.
"Pat is a live-for-the-day type of guy. He wants to make the best of his days, so I wasn't surprised," Cardinals safety Kwamie Lassiter said. "It's the type of guy he is: 'What else can I do to help somebody?' I have respect for him. He worked hard. He was seventh-rounder and made the best of his opportunity. He worked hard and established himself as a strong player. He's a stand-up guy."
Tillman's decision to forgo the security that a pro contract would have provided hasn't gone unnoticed among other athletes in Phoenix.
"I don't know him, but I've seen him play and I'm a huge fan of his," said Coyotes wing Shane Doan, a Canadian. "Everybody wants something that they can believe in passionately, and everybody believes passionately in their country. At the same time, he gave up a whole lot to do that. It's just a neat thing. You just wish him all the best."
Diamondbacks outfielder Luis Gonzalez said Tillman's decision has touched the entire community.
"He left a lot of money out there to achieve something in his heart that he wanted to do," he said. "You can't fault the man for that. Everybody loved watching him play, from his intensity to the way he approached the game. He has taken the high road on interviews and things like that. He's doing what he wants and not for recognition.
"The recognition steamrolled because he did something nobody believed anybody would ever do, leave a pro sport to join the military."
Grace said: "From what I've heard about Pat, he will be a Ranger, and he's going to defend our country. Nothing but kudos for him. I've met him, but I really don't know him. But I'd like to get to know him better."
By Greg Garber
ESPN.com
While Pat Tillman's former Arizona Cardinals teammates sweat and grimace their way through an off-season conditioning program -- a heavy rotation of weight lifting and aerobic exercises -- Tillman faces the prospect of the ultimate sacrifice.
A member of the elite Army Rangers, Tillman presumably is on the ground somewhere in the splintered country of Iraq. Deployed in early March along with the rest of the 75th Ranger Regiment, he and his comrades are working to liberate Iraq from the grip of Saddam Hussein's regime.
Tillman, at 26 years old, left a three-year, $3.6 million contract on the table to enlist in the Army with his brother Kevin after the 2001 season. Tillman will make no more than $17,000 this year. He is believed to be the first NFL regular to leave the game for military service since World War II, when 1,000 players served and 23 were killed.
Tillman's commitment has inspired shock and, quite frankly, awe.
"It touches you pretty deep," Cardinals head coach Dave McGinnis said at the recent NFL meetings. "Pat Tillman is a guy that is full of fiber, full of fabric, everything that he does goes right to the core of what is good and sound in our country."
John McCain, the U.S. Senator from Arizona who was a prisoner of war for more than five years in Vietnam, lauded Tillman as "the quintessential definition of a patriot."
The Rangers are the Army's finest light infantry unit, whose standard weaponry are machine guns, mortars and grenade launchers. It was the Rangers who conducted a daylight raid in Somalia, an event upon which Ridley Scott based his 2001 film, "Black Hawk Down."
"They strike quickly, with great precision and lethality," said Carol Darby, the news media chief for the Army Special Operations command at North Carolina's Fort Bragg. "They break things open so other people can come in behind them."
After Tillman made his ground-breaking decision to serve his country in the wake of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, some wondered if others in the athletic arena -- in many minds, a parallel universe to the crucible of war -- would come in behind him.
And while there has been an outpouring of support for the U.S. troops from athletes in all sports, no other high-profile professional athlete has followed Tillman's selfless example. In fact, former Cardinals teammate Simeon Rice, now a member of the Super Bowl champion-Tampa Bay Buccaneers, disparaged Tillman in an interview on Jim Rome's radio show last month.
Pat Tillman has been alone among today's professional athletes at the highest level, giving up his career to serve his country.
"He really wasn't that good, not really," Rice said. "He was good enough to play in Arizona, [but] that's just like the XFL."
After several more promptings from Rome, Rice allowed, "I think it's very admirable, actually. You've got to give kudos to a guy like that because he did it for his own reasons. Maybe it's the Rambo movies, maybe it's Sylvester Stallone, Rocky, whatever compels him."
More likely, it was Tillman's love for America, not to mention his brother, who also enlisted. In the aftermath of the interview, Rice's remarks were seen as symptomatic of today's privileged, self-centered professional athletes who have been enabled from their earliest playing days.
"A professional athlete's career is self-indulgent almost by definition," said Alan Klein, professor of sociology and anthropology at Northeastern University. "Risking your career and your life is not an easy decision. They're content to wear a patch on the uniform for solidarity, but that's the easy way out. Really, we're all taking the easy way out.
"My parents were in [Nazi concentration camp] Auschwitz. All my life, I've heard about the acts of bravery and sacrifice. We would all like to think of ourselves as people who would do the right thing. But, deep down, how many of us would give up everything we have? Certainly, it's not a lock."
New York Daily News - http://www.nydailynews.com
Tillman is army of one
Saturday, September 14th, 2002
Pat Tillman would be appalled. Let the man hallucinate in peace, please. Let him starve until his internal organs begin to screech in pain.
Just because he would rather sleep standing up, with ants crawling in and out of nostrils, doesn't make him insane. So what if he traded in a $3.6 million contract with the Arizona Cardinals for an existence in which his bosses make NFL coaches seem like Mahatma Gandhi and the paychecks total $18,000 a year. Must we continue to write and speak about a professional athlete who no longer matters on Sunday afternoons?
Well, yes, we must.
There might not be a more important story in sports today, tomorrow, next year, forever - whenever the elusive concept of peace is achieved - than the story of Pat Tillman. He's the Arizona Cardinal strong safety who, days after returning from his honeymoon, voluntarily tossed away what had already been a meaningful NFL career for a chance to defend what is most sacred. He's the Ted Williams of our time.
He's the only professional athlete who truly deserves to be hailed a hero.
Imagine, Tillman, 25 and in his peak earning years, did not even consult his agent on this one. What was he going to hold out for, more rations? While rescue workers were still exhuming body parts at Ground Zero last autumn, Tillman and his brother Kevin, a minor league baseball player, simply up and joined the Army with the intention of becoming Rangers, that elite Special Forces unit, the alpha males of the military. Not every athlete needs props on the highlight shows: the Tillmans, bless them, have denied all interview requests.
There was a report the brothers lost friends in the Sept. 11 attack, but family members say that is not true. Still looking for a reason? There were 2,801 of them in New York alone. One year ago many Americans had the same initial gut reaction as the Tillmans', but then the selfish and practical realities of our lives took over.
Pat and Kevin added an extra layer of meaning to the mantra hanging in the air from the doomed passengers of Flight 93: Let's roll.
The Tillmans, both of whom enlisted with the grunt ranking of specialists rather than accept the Army's offer to let them enter as officers, won't complete advanced individual training in Fort Benning, Ga., until next month. Then begins the real torture. Ranger School has been described by one graduate as "about as close to terminal misery as the Army gets."
My brother Craig remembers watching a fellow soldier, delirious and delusional and craving a soda, attempt to put change in a cactus during the now extinct desert phase in Texas. His West Point classmates have equally harrowing tales of what a person can achieve when pushed to an extreme, and it is no coincidence that a sports background was their greatest buffer.
John Beatty was a wild-man linebacker at West Point, class of '92. Pete Carey was the pretty-boy quarterback. Both eventually earned the coveted black and gold Ranger Tab, though not without some perilous moments. Only 35% of candidates graduate Ranger School, and the actual failure rate is much higher considering the three-day preliminary camp weeds out another 30-40%.
"They deprive you of sleep and they deprive you basically of food and your body gets torn down. I'm sure I talked to a couple of trees in the middle of night because I thought they were people," says Carey, who later commanded a light infantry air assault company in Korea and is now a graduate student at USC. "Football prioritizes qualities like speed and explosive power. Ranger School demands stamina and endurance in ways that football can never match."
Three phases - swamps in Florida, mountains and jungle in Georgia - make up the Ranger course over 61 days, with each training day lasting 19.6 hours. Beds, for the lucky ones, might be a tuft of pine needles, or a latrine ditch. Many soldiers snooze on their feet, after "humping" (walking with a 115-pound backpack filled with water, provisions, ammo, weapons and clothing so that they resemble camels) across miles of treacherous territory through the night.
Always, soldiers must be ready for the next operation, the next ambush. Rangers train like they fight. Bones crack and break in the pitch-black night movement; plenty of soldiers drop out after suffering trench foot and other skin diseases from spending days on end in the water. In 1995, four Rangers died of hypothermia after grueling training in the chilly, chest-high north Florida swamps, where they were engaged in a bridge-building exercise.
"Survival takes mental toughness and guts, to use words I learned from football," says Beatty, now a U.S. Army captain assigned to HQ's 5th Army in Ft. Leavenworth, Kan. "Those two-a-days and playing through pain were great preparation. It all falls under the umbrella of teamwork. If you can work as a member of a bigger goal, whether in football or the military, you have a much greater chance of surviving."
Carey remembers candy bars - John Wayne bars, they're called - being bartered for $50. Like Tillman, who is listed in the Cardinals media guide as 5-11, 200 pounds, Carey had little fat to burn: within two weeks, he went from 195 pounds to 160. At least when the body begins to smell like ammonia, feeding on itself, the bugs keep their distance. "I saw some guys who were real studs who didn't make it," says Carey. "That 12-mile road march is a heck of a lot different than doing passing drills."
Pat Tillman is, by all accounts, a real stud who tends to laugh in the abyss of can't dos. He wasn't selected until the seventh round of the 1998 NFL draft, the 226th pick overall, too small to remain a linebacker, too slow (it was assumed) to have much of a chance. He converted to safety, set a Cardinals record with 224 tackles in 2000, and when St. Louis came courting with an offer of $9 million, he chose loyalty over bucks. Bless him again, he wanted to stick with one of the NFL's most woebegone teams.
And stamina? Tillman, restless following the '99 season, ran a marathon. He prepared for the 2001 training camp by competing in a 70.2-mile triathlon. Mental toughness? Tillman used to climb atop 200-foot light towers at Sun Devil Stadium, a perfectly logical place for a guy to meditate.
The Rangers, perhaps the most storied military unit in the world, seem a sober fit. They are America's finest assassins, warriors in a testosterone fog, first in and last out, securing airfields, taking prisoners, bombing railways and bridges and doing the nasty work that makes it possible for the rest of us to enjoy our daily freedoms.
So this afternoon, as you sip a cold one and watch your heroes in shoulder pads do battle on the gridiron, think of Tillman. Tell his story, again and again and again. It bears repeating.
"As a company commander in combat...crawling around in the mud with an enemy machine gun hammering over my head...the crotch ripped out of my uniform..constipated...hungry...huge bug bites under my eyes...exhausted with days of intermittent sleep....I could always comfort myself by saying..."it could be worse....I could be back in Ranger School". General Barry McCaffrey
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http://www.ranger25.com/Pat%20Tillman.htm
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:35
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quote:
you could be the stupidest person I have ever encountered.
State sponsered murder?
Have you ever heard of 9/11. 3000 people dead?
Remeber, we are talking about the war in afghanistant, not that "other" war we shouldn't be in.
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I'm saying we shouldn't be fighting wars full stop. You'll note that 9/11 was a crime, a mass murder of ~3000 people, and not state-sponsored murder or an act of war per se. More pragmatically, I think there was greater justification for the Afghanistan campaign than the Iraq one, much great justification, yet I would no rather fight there than in Iraq! Do you understand the distinction. Tillman may well have had reasons he thought were important for fighting, I do not believe they were so. My opinion is no more objective than his, I am merely stating mine, which you can take as indicative of my actions given the same situation.
And regarding 9/11, how long do you intend to keep using that to justify your little crusades? America should just get over it.
quote:
you just don't get it do you? Even if you don't believe in nations, other countries do. And they will organize and will conquer you. What are you going to do when an army of 2 million threatens you or your family?
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Moon them? What's your point?
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Gatekeeper
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United States of America
Feb 2000
time: 23:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Sloww never said that he didn't respect reservists. He's just saying that Tillman's sacrifice of a dream life to serve his country makes him respect Tillman more than some soldiers who got into the service for less noble reasons. |
"Less noble" reasons? Hmm. I don't know about you or Sloww, but the reservists from *my* neck of the woods serving in Iraq right now are pretty straight-up men and women. Firefighters, water plant administrators, police officers and so on.
Some have been deployed for more than a year now (and won't be coming home anytime soon with the 90-120 day deployment extensions), while a second group shippped out in December. Insofar as I can tell, none of them signed up for "less noble" reasons than the late Tillman. Most are in their mid- to late 20s and 30s (some a bit older even), and a number of them were once regular military. Before being deployed, they often helped out in disaster situations stateside (usually due to Mother Nature's vagaries).
Forgive me for going on and on, but I'm struggling here to find the "less noble" reasons these men and women signed up. I can't. As far as I can tell, their hearts and minds are similar to Tillman's. To me, that's what counts. Not status in life. Not because they signed up for "less noble" reasons.
quote:
A perfectly legitimate point of view, even if I don't entirely agree with it. Certainly not a viewpoint deserving of all the bile and hatred being thrown Slowwhand's way right now... |
I'll let my signature speak for itself. Nonetheless, if what I'm writing is considered "bile and hatred," then this world's in a lot more trouble than I thought it was.
Gatekeeper
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Gatekeeper
Forgive me for going on and on, but I'm struggling here to find the "less noble" reasons these men and women signed up. I can't. As far as I can tell, their hearts and minds are similar to Tillman's. To me, that's what counts. Not status in life. Not because they signed up for "less noble" reasons.
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You must know better people than I. I have several friends that signed up for the money thinking that they would never have to do anything more than give up a few days or weeks a year. Well, one is currently in Falluja right now, and i'm not sure what happened to the other after he was shipped out, meaning he's alive, but I don't know where. The only thing these guys were thinking about was the "free" money, nothing noble. I know because they would laugh about it prior to 9/11. Good times 
That is not to say there aren't people who sign up for noble reasons, as I'm sure there are, but I think sloww et al were referring to people like my friends.
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Drake Tungsten
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Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:35
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quote:
"Less noble" reasons? Hmm. I don't know about you or Sloww, but the reservists from *my* neck of the woods serving in Iraq right now are pretty straight-up men and women. Firefighters, water plant administrators, police officers and so on. |
I'm sure they are and I don't think Sloww was talking about these kind of people. I think he was talking more about the people who got into the military hoping to get the advantages of the system without ever having to fight. These type of people definitely exist, although I'm not sure on the numbers of them. I would imagine that it's pretty low, but that's just a guess on my part.
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I'll let my signature speak for itself. Nonetheless, if what I'm writing is considered "bile and hatred," then this world's in a lot more trouble than I thought it was. |
I wasn't talking about you as much as I was about comments like this...
quote:
Dude, you're really a little ****head, you know that? Reservists serve their country just as much as Pat Tillman. Reservists are dying overseas.
You're really no different than any of the other warmongers that run this country. **** the poor and the reservists fighting this war, lets hold a football player up on high.
**** you |
Reeks of bile and hatred to me... 
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Adam Smith
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Maryland, USA
Jan 1970
time: 00:35
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Look, folks, I don't give a hang whether Pat Tillman was a famous football player or not. This could have been about a fireman, stockbroker, college professor, whatever.
And there's no disrespect to reservists, regular military, or anybody else. Their lives and families have been screwed up enough by being sent overseas for who knows how long. Most of it (Iraq) wasn't necessary.
So far as I know this guy wasn't on a one-man Rambo trip.
And this isn't a Jessica Lynch media farce. Not by a long shot.
But from what I understand, this is one of the clearest cases about a guy who felt that he wasn't pulling his weight after 9-11, got up off his ass, and did something about it, even though he had plenty of good reasons not to. And I think that deserves some resepct.
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MichaeltheGreat
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Apolyton Grand Executioner
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mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:35
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quote:
Originally posted by SlowwHand
There's a difference in someone who joins the service because that's about their only option.
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I don't give a **** why they volunteer. A soldier is a soldier, Airborne is all the way, Rangers lead the way, and squids and air farce generally need not apply.  There are plenty of other options than joining the military, and for people who don't have many options, they're not likely to get into Airborne or Ranger school, let alone into one of the Ranger battalions, if they even get into the military at all. We're not back in the days of taking any ****up who's at a dead end in life. When they die in action, each one is no more, nor any less, valuable or meaningful than any other.
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There's a difference in someone who plays weekend warrior and gets caught with his pants down.
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If they get killed because of their own negligence or poor training, we don't know in most cases. Weekend warriors who deploy and don't try to ***** their way out of it also rate the same respect when their asses are in the line. The enemy doesn't give a **** - he's still trying to kill you.
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Then there's Tillman who had it made and walked away from it all.
If you don't see that, Michael, then you don't.
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As opposed to the 20 year old KIA who went into the service to get through college on the GI bill, and would have had it made, if his or her life hadn't got cut short?
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You can sit there with a stupid look on your face like Sava does. |
Eat me, Tex. Every KIA deserves the same honor and respect as every other KIA regardless of their background, unit, or reason for being there, except for those whose actions in the field are exceptionally valorous. And every KIA, WIA, MIA or POW equally deserves not to have his or her situation used for political gain or propaganda purposes, like the five Sullivan brothers back in WW2. First the ****ing Navy makes a big deal about them joining together and put them on the same ship, then when all five go to the bottom of Ironbottom Sound, they made propaganda posters out of 'em. I bet that was a great comfort to Ma and Pa Sullivan.
Maybe we need a new Insta-hero since Jessica Lynch didn't quite work out, and we don't have the glorious and clear victory our fearless leaders thought we'd get?
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24-04-2004 11:04
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