25-04-2004 10:51									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Spray relax I think he was an idiot to choose a life of state-sponsored murder and daily risk over a few million dollars. I would choose living in the gutter over the former. It sucks when people die, no matter what side, but imo, you're an idiot if you get yourself into that situation, the reasons ultimately having the same worth as the dirt you're bleeding in.

State-sponsored murder is an oxymoron.

	25-04-2004 11:55									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Sava This is a bigger media circus than Jessica Lynch.

I still want to hit it.

	25-04-2004 12:27									#93
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asleepathewheel, Drake:

I agree that there are some people who probably did get into the reserves and whatnot w/o clearly thinking it through, assuming they'd never have fight. Fortunately, they're the clear minority.

Speaking of reserves, weren't there members of a Missouri National Guard unit that refused to go to Kuwait in the lead-up to the first Gulf War? I was a sophomore in HS back then, but I'm sure that was the case. Insofar as I know, that hasn't happened among any of the units sent to Iraq during and after the second Gulf War (though there was a deserter I read about a few weeks ago, up in Canada).

Gatekeeper

	25-04-2004 12:30									#94
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I didn't join the naval reserves because I knew Bush was itching to go to Iraq. It didn't take a genius to figure it out. This was 1 year before the war started, and a long time before we put pressure on the U.N. but you could hear it in Bush's speeches. I knew it was going to happen.

Of course I wouldn't actually have to fight being in the naval reserves. I just didn't want to get called up and have to serve in Bahrain. I hate the middle east with a passion. It's so damn hot, and there's nothing to do. I just wanted to do the weekends and the 2 weeks. I had no interest in long term duty. So I ended up not joining, because with Bush as prez, I knew there was a decent chance of me getting called up.

	25-04-2004 12:35									#95
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I wouldn't worry too much, Diss. From what I've read, the military is doing pretty good in terms of retention rates for personnel. About the only division behind its retention quota is the 82nd Airborne ...

Gatekeeper

	25-04-2004 12:42									#96
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oh I would never do it for my country

I was thinking about it for the pay . And like I said, I would never join the army . My skills aren't of the fighting nature. I like to operate and fix things. I work with my hands.

	25-04-2004 13:26									#97
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although one interesting thing to note is today I think is the first time any sailors have been Killed in Action during this war.

2 U.S. sailors died today on that attack on the oil platform.

so being in the navy isn't completely safe. But I still preferred that duty over front line action .

	25-04-2004 13:47									#98
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Heh. Well, to each their own. Speaking of that, it's time to hit the hay ...

	26-04-2004 12:53									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich State-sponsored murder is an oxymoron.

Hungary, sometime in WWII

Edit by MtG: No photos of corpses will be posted. Period. Don't do it again.

	26-04-2004 17:14									#100
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Whaleboy -

tou-f*cking-che!

Kucinich just got pwned!

	26-04-2004 18:00									#101
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You're the biggest herd of dumbasses ever gathered together in one spot.
The only thing missing is a big "L" tattooed on your forehead, indicating LOSER.

	26-04-2004 19:48									#102
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But you love us Sloww *suggestive grin*

	27-04-2004 01:35									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich State-sponsored murder is an oxymoron.

A less-emotive-than-Whaleboy's response:
Not when it's committed on members of another state. When Libyan agents bombed the Lockerbie plane, that was state sponsored murder, because Libya didn't have the right to sponsor murder in another nation.

I agree with Whaleboy on Hungary in WWII, but I think it's a bit of an emotive argument.

	27-04-2004 01:38									#104
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quote: You're the biggest herd of dumbasses ever gathered together in one spot. The only thing missing is a big "L" tattooed on your forehead, indicating LOSER.

I would disagree, the Cowboys locker room has more ppl in it at times...

quote: But you love us Sloww *suggestive grin*

I don't think he was excluding himself

	27-04-2004 01:44									#105
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quote: I agree with Whaleboy on Hungary in WWII, but I think it's a bit of an emotive argument.

Mine was not an argument, it was an example. My argument is that the death that is directly attributed to the intended actions of a state (as is the standard definition of murder) is state-sponsored murder (since the actual killers are acting in the name and under the orders of that state).

	27-04-2004 01:47									#106
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And technically it's not emotive. If we take the image as read, it was not using emotion as a premise, since the statement of the holocaust is a refuting example. The emotions that are attached to that "piggyback" on the premise, but are irrelevant to the argument, thus it is not an emotive argument.

	27-04-2004 02:12									#107
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Murder is a legal term defined by the state. Hence you're the ones being pwnd by Ziggy.

	27-04-2004 02:15									#108
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Wrong, murder is a specific philosophical concept. Legal interpretations of that are irrelevant, I stick to the proper definitions.

	27-04-2004 02:17									#109
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No. It's a legal term. There's a reason you never see armies tried for mass murder once they leave the battlefield.

	27-04-2004 03:31									#110
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Yes, but you do see the leaders of those soldiers being tried for war crimes. If a state spy, an assassin, kills someone in a different nation, it is still murder, even though it is state sponsored. It depends which state is sponsoring it. If the US execute a US citizen on US soil, that's not legally murder. If the US execute a UK citizen on UK soil, whether by means of covert ops or direct justice, if it is not agreed by the UK government, it is murder.

	27-04-2004 07:58									#111
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Murder isn't a war crime...

	27-04-2004 23:48									#112
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quote: No. It's a legal term. There's a reason you never see armies tried for mass murder once they leave the battlefield.

Murder can be defined as the killing of one by another against the formerly living's will. That begs the question of justifiable murder, where we can then debate war, war crimes, utilitarian actions and whatnot, but by definition it is still murder.

Sorry MtG didn't realise it was in the rules. To make that post make sense, I posted an image of victims of the Holocaust.

	27-04-2004 23:52									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Murder can be defined as the killing of one by another against the formerly living's will.

It can be defined as such. But it isn't.

	27-04-2004 23:55									#114
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Why doesn't it suprise me that we haven't heard of anything about Afghanistan from i.e. CNN for a number of months, but that changes when football player dies there.

Anyways, it's sad that he died, but it'd be great if a just fraction of the thought going towards him went to many others.

	28-04-2004 00:10									#115
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Because you haven't been looking.

	28-04-2004 00:13									#116
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No, I've watched a good deal of CNN (far too much, really). There has been very little on Afghanistan.

	28-04-2004 00:15									#117
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There's your problem. I've seen a decent number of wire reports from the area in Newspapers.

	28-04-2004 00:18									#118
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Yes. CNN isn't a newspaper. There's a reason why I mentioned it instead of, say, the NYT.

	28-04-2004 00:20									#119
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You made it seem like you were talking about American media not just CNN. At least that's the impression I get with the "i.e. CNN."

	28-04-2004 01:40									#120
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Tillman lived the American Dream and then defended it with his life. What more can any American aspire to? No need to compare him to the many others that have served and sacrifice. It is sufficient to honor him and if we honor Tillman in a more public way than we do others, it is appropriate because he was a more public man. If we take him to be a symbol for the others, then as we honor him, we honor them. And it is the least we can do.

Hoorah!