29-04-2004 05:13									#31
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You're comparing an AI that sees everything on the map every turn, gets infinite movement on RR's to defend anywhere at once and only has to attack/defend with one big pile of units, to an AI that gets 1/5 movement on RR, has to build armies consisting of 4 different speciality of unit (att/def/rang/flank) and stack them into 12 units and can only see what its units can see?

	29-04-2004 05:31									#32
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Well actually the RR is not a cheat as they players have it as well.

As to CTP 1 or 2, they stunk.

	29-04-2004 05:40									#33
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quote: Well actually the RR is not a cheat as they players have it as well.

I didnt say it was a cheat, its the taking away of some strategic thinking to help the AI defend.

	29-04-2004 05:46									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora I didnt say it was a cheat, its the taking away of some strategic thinking to help the AI defend.

RR is a poor example. The human player exploits the advantages of RR much more effectively than the AI ever could. It actually allows the human player to defend just as effectively with a lot less units than the AI needs.

	29-04-2004 11:10									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora You're comparing an AI that sees everything on the map every turn, gets infinite movement on RR's to defend anywhere at once and only has to attack/defend with one big pile of units, to an AI that gets 1/5 movement on RR, has to build armies consisting of 4 different speciality of unit (att/def/rang/flank) and stack them into 12 units and can only see what its units can see?

I'm comparing an AI (artifical intelligence), that heroically defends its cities (even though it often overdos the rushing and drafting), with an AI (artifical idiot), that moves all defenders out of a city in danger and leaves it undefended. And this has nothing to do with the fact what it sees and what not.

What concerns your RR argument... tse... nice deception in a thread about cheats and a discussion about cheats. No wonder that it was caught so quick.

	29-04-2004 18:01									#36
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As i said, the CtP2 AI has to deal with a great deal more strategic thinking, moving and stacking the right units together, moving via unblocked roads into threatened cities, or towards targets. You cant compare that to an AI that all it has to do is see your units coming from anywhere build units and move them in one turn inside the city. The fact that Cradle IS equally as competitive as civ3 AI (if not more) shows that you dont need to take away strategic thinking to get a competitive AI, not to mention an AI that attacks where you dont expect it to.

	29-04-2004 18:40									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora The fact that Cradle IS equally as competitive as civ3 AI (if not more) shows that you dont need to take away strategic thinking to get a competitive AI, not to mention an AI that attacks where you dont expect it to.

Cradle does this by boldly cheating (much more than the Civ3 AI does). So what exactly is your point?

	29-04-2004 18:55									#38
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Which is bolder, getting resources bonuses (as all civ games do) or knowing every tile on the map from turn 0 onwards?

We're going around in circles really.

	29-04-2004 18:59									#39
	Put an end to popups!

Yes. Perhaps you should go and spam your source code cafe, as usual.

	29-04-2004 19:02									#40
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You seem to have dropped your handbag.

	29-04-2004 19:11									#41
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I just have to work. You know, that is what one gets money for. If you'd try it too, you could buy a new game now and then, instead of sitting with the old rubbish.

	29-04-2004 19:16									#42
	Tired of ads?

I'm disappointed. Oh well, i'll see you in sourcecode cafe sometime.

	29-04-2004 19:21									#43
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You have enough coders. I do enough coding at work and prefer to relax in my spare time, so participation is out. Therefor all I do is to lurk your forums, at most once a week. You hardly will see me posting there.

	30-04-2004 05:09									#44
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WTF are you guys talking about?

On topic: I was in a meeting today, and a prospective client was describing how throught the use of barcodes and RFIDs, the industrial parts clients of his firm were able to track and automatically re-order parts when hitting a min stockhold, thus never running out. Well, that's great customer value. But better, he said, was that this allowed his firm to have a better picture of upcoming orders, thus minimizing reserve inventory and further increasing inventory turns. IOW, better transparency of information is a huge win-win for them and their customers. (BTW, this is the ultimate goal of Wal-mart's RFID initiative, which will even further benefit consumers). This company, btw, kicks mofo *ss.

So, in the middle of this meeting, where I'm the lead presenter, btw, what did I do?

I thought of Civ3.

Who has the greatest transparency of information? The AI civs, of course. To what end? Well, not to *excel* past its competitors, but to make up for shortcomings against the human player.

Is that cheating? Naw... it's just what the commercial state-of-the-art game developer has to do.

So then, of course, I told the prospect client that they should use the production Pillar to gain a branch lead in Replaceable Parts, and do an Infantry Rush.

	30-04-2004 07:13									#45
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I am lost with all this rambling, however I detect some humor in the last post.

And so to start a little controversy, maybe since these boards have thinned out the last few months, I state, that with all the modding I have been doing and play-testing there from that AI cheating should be institutionalized and brought into the editor as a game design crutch. I know, I know you all just love the idea and believe Firaxis will not overly use it. However, I am speaking here of modders who do not have access to AI routines and therefore hampered as far as improving the AI’s performance.

Players may cry, but hey, they almost always cry…

So I am saying for now let us just put these AI cheating options in the Game Editor and I will simply disclose to prospective players, that AI cheating you are experiencing is the next best thing to Artificial Intelligence.

Sincerely,
I think ….

	30-04-2004 07:27									#46
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You know, I find it hard to believe that folks would actually LIKE a true, decent AI. I used to screech about how games were too easy...and enjoyed the excesses of Emperor-level wins of 250% in Civ 1, and the like. Unfortunately, in not only Civ but almost all other games they have now tightened up their act, and I can barely manage Monarch.

Pah

So, enjoy your dumb AI while it lasts. Would you REALLY like an AI with a (literally) bigger brain than you AND better able to co-ordinate everything at once AND with advantages. Heck no

Besides, if AI cheating ticks me off, I know enough exploits to give it some back

	30-04-2004 07:50									#47
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I was asked the other day, 'what computer tool I used to figure something out', and I replied, 'none, I calculated it all in my head'. They looked dumb-founded and unbelieving.

Yes it true and I believe always it will be true for at least some humans, that the best computer in our own heads. The sharper the AI the more we are challenged! This is good and if it is not good then we are serious 'do-do' as a race...

	30-04-2004 08:00									#48
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Actually, I was thinking 'bigger' as in raw power. As in, like say, a supercomputer or 20
Granted the brain and those machines have different purposes, but you see the 'bigger brain' idea

Unfortunately, so far, I have been unable to grow a room-size brain, nor found somewhere safe to keep it

The point - sometimes the AI SHOULD just be dumb. If the civ AI was powered by, say, every computer NASA could hook up, you'd consider it a minor mis-match

	30-04-2004 08:24									#49
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//The point - sometimes the AI SHOULD just be dumb.// quote by Cerbykins

Yes and this can be handled by random seed and called chance. The super computers referred to would of course 'narrow' the market a bit. As even used super-computers are probally just as scarce as the new ones.

I'd rather shift the AI up several notches one way and many others for awhile and then just carefully 'present dumb' as a player option in the start up screen.

Last edited by Antrine on 30-04-2004 at 12:13

	30-04-2004 08:32									#50
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Thing is...knowing how the world of games has evolved...we'll probably get bitten for a few years before they realise the AI is romping over all the new players and only the hardcore is left
(I'm not paranoid...or am I...wretched insurgent thoughts )
As far as I can see, the vast majority of single-player based AI games have been built around the intelligent humans trying to run rings over the better supplied, better equipped but ultimately dumb AI. It seems to work. All we need is the odd tweak on Civ to make chieftain a bit easier and the AI less scared of armies and both the extremes will be happy again

Until next month

	30-04-2004 11:45									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus WTF are you guys talking about?

Nothing to be worried about. Maquiladora invades our forums from time to time to bash Civ3 and promote his own crap game, and I'm used to troll him and bash his game back. It's an old enmity, but nothing too hostile. I may criticize Civ3 and especially Conquests enough myself, but when it comes to the defense against foreigners like him, I stand firmly behind our cause.

	30-04-2004 23:27									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph What concerns the mods, you may want to ask your beloved friend hexagonian, how many hefty cheats and fat advantages are in Cradle.

Because Ralph asked nicely about our so-called 'crap' game and by implication, my so-called 'crap' Mod, here's the info...

CTP2 Cradle Very Hard Bonuses (default CTP2 Impossible)
(version 1.30b, posted April 8, 2004)

To start the game...
- Starting Human Advances: 3
- Starting AI Advantages: 8
This works out to 2.66x1 starting advantage. Cradle's tech tree is approx. 2x the size of civ3's tree, making this gap less drastic.
- Number of extra AI type (settlers): 1
- No additional bonus AI miliary units, although the AI does start out with 5000 Gold (this can translate into a potential 5 rushbought units)
- 4000 PW (or 4 mines)

Gold and Commerce - AI Unit Support Bonuses
- Free Unit Upgrades
- AI Gold Generator: 1.15 (player is 1.00)
- Gold Bonus for each city: 1 per pop point (via SLIC)
Note: CTP2's gold setup is (5x) of civ3's setup. (1 gold in civ3 translates into 5 gold in CTP2)

- AI to AI trade rate: no AI Bonus
- AI max government transition in turns: no AI Bonus

Cost
- AI Science Cost (player is 10): 6.5
- AI Food Cost (player is 10): 6.5
- AI Production Cost (player is 10): 7.5
- AI PW Advantage: +05-15% - Based on government type (via PW SLIC)

- AI only sees what it has explored and also has the same FoW effect as the human


civ3 AI Bonuses - Deity
(Pulled from civfanatics site)

To start the game...
- AI Number of extra type (usually settlers): 1
- AI Number of extra type 2 (usually workers): 2
- AI Number of extra defensive units: 8
- AI Number of extra offensive units: 4

Gold and Commerce - AI Unit Support Bonuses
- Additional free support for each AI civ: 16
(Pulled from the same thread at civfanatics) 'This gives the AI civs the ability to have a lot of units without paying for them. At Deity level it's 16 free units to start and 4 extra for each city it has. A large percentage of the time the AI never even has upkeep costs at this level, even once it's a great sprawling Democracy.'
- Bonus for each city: 4 (I'm assuming that this bonus is not affected by corruption - if not, this bonus will has a greater impact from a percentage standpoint)

- AI to AI trade rate: 160
- AI max government transition in turns: 2

Cost
- AI Science Cost (player is 10): 6
- AI Food Cost (player is 10): 6
- AI Production Cost (player is 10): 6

- AI sees the entire map, strategic goods and all enemy unit placement

I'm comparing these two settings (CTP2 Cradle Very Hard and civ3 Deity) because they are the next-to-highest levels in both setups (with the release of c3c) and I haven't been able to locate 'Sid' level settings.

Realize that since there are different bonuses and that some of the basic concepts are handled differently, we cannot get a fully accurate comparison. But it can be convincingly argued that CTP2's setup offers less bonuses and cheats across the board than the civ3 setup. (Maybe I need to get our SLICers to mod in some of those 'fat' civ3 AI bonuses.)

So Ralph, the ball is your court now...

Thanks to civfanatics for the interesting info... It certainly opened my eyes http://forums.civfanatics.com/showt...&threadid=37490

	01-05-2004 20:14									#53
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Excellent post hex

	02-05-2004 10:15									#54
	Got spare money?

I am, foremost, a FPS player. I trully excell in those sorts of games. I am only a regent-monarch player in this..

Trully, I think its ironic. The AI's in some FPS are trully cunning AND they 'cheat'. Here, in thel and of strategy..AI's get a back-seat...

As for FPS sophistification..Take for instance Half-life or even better, the new release, FarCry. In Farcry, the enemy will try to flank you, surround you..will work together in fireing teams to overwhelm you. They are better equipped, better armoured and they definately got the number advantage. Infact, the game is only winnable because of a few gaps in the AI's perfection. They are completely helpless at long range combat, and after playing Operation FLashpoint for a long time, I am a ace of long Range combat..without a scope.

This isn't even mentioning the Huge mutants with Fully automatic ROcket launchers attached to their arm that can take a entire clip of shotgun rounds to the head before they keel over....

Heh. Ahem..

Also, proccesor power is not a issue. You know, back in DOS days we did most of what we do now..word processing..Internet browsing..Sure it wasn't as graphically intense, but those programs were Tiny, and Fast. Harking back to these days are coder-contests to make Kilobyte sized games. One Game, .Krieger..weighing in at under 100K and 3 years in the makeing..is a very graphic and large game.

With time, and EFFORT (coders are very lazy these days.."Oh..? Your Computer won't run it? Go buy more RAM." Farcry weighs in at 4 GIGs of HD space..) a vastly superior AI requireing less processor power is a reality. Ecspecially considering the fact that not much is put into the Graphics of this game. SOme simple Animation gifts and terrain bitmaps...There should be LOTS and LOTS of time to be able to pump the AI. Instead they keep pileing these 'features' on us...

You know, I wouldn't mind it if we rounded up all the accountants and marketeers in this country and sent them to some faraway distant island...WITH NO MONEY

	03-05-2004 02:42									#55
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

A curious question. In the strat world, it has almost always been a case of AI numbers vs human cunning. When the AI gets cunning too, THEN what are you going to use?

(Out of curiosity )

(My point is not that it can't be done, just that it won't be done well straight away, and we may suffer a couple of years of insane AIs... )

	03-05-2004 03:39									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Cerbykins A curious question. In the strat world, it has almost always been a case of AI numbers vs human cunning. When the AI gets cunning too, THEN what are you going to use? (Out of curiosity ) (My point is not that it can't be done, just that it won't be done well straight away, and we may suffer a couple of years of insane AIs... )

Hopefully a balanced game will be the result so its still winnable. Insane AI's sound like a laugh though...

	03-05-2004 05:24									#57
	Put an end to popups!

Some fo them are already pretty mad to start with, especially Shaka's determined focus on 'impi-to-death' invasions
Really though, if Chieftain seems like a big pain at least for a while now...well...scale it up, an AI you can barely beat on ANY level, after months
Probably my paranoia working overtime, but my experience of the games world says generally they learn from the mistakes rather than pre-empting them, and begging for 'better AI' may earn unkillable opposition

Time will tell, I guess

	03-05-2004 05:55									#58
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All hail!! A killer, insane, go-nail-them-to-the-wall AI.

All we have to do is copy human behavior patterns displayed via game tourneys, clone and script!

I like cunning, let's add it as a stock AI personality!

	03-05-2004 20:24									#59
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Huzzah, indeed. I am not afraid of any kind of AI..though, if we do make the AI trully cunning and tactical..Then we -have- to take away all the stupid bonuses it gets and treat it just like any human player, except at the hardest levels..

This way Cerbykins can stay in the game

Thats why I play at regent/monarch. I can't -JUSTIFY- a cheating, mind-numbing AI. *Cough* Zulus! *cough* I could probably beat them if I tryed hard, but I just can't justify putting MY effort into something the designers of this game DID NOT.

Even at regent, I find myself being 'nice' to the AI, occasionnaly giving them good deals on trades, like a whole tech for a luxury or something..just to keep the playing field level.

	04-05-2004 04:33									#60
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Me? Inadequate? NAH
Don't worry about the Zulus though, Shaka spends his days trying ot nail me with Impi, and wondering why he can't capture any cities
In fact, teh only time I recall a Zulu being in the Modern Era, is under my rule...