27-04-2004 00:00									#1
	The Merchant Exchange? Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I could test this out at home, but I was trying to make up a decent little run-through of all the SPs.... I was wondering, does the Merchant Exchange let you exceed 2 energy before restriction techs or not? If you have a river or something, that's giving you two energy before building, it isn't a resource, and you haven't lifted energy restricitons, will you get 2 or 3 out of it, if you built the Exchange in the base using that square? Also, does it increase energy yields for monoliths and forests?

	27-04-2004 00:06									#2
	Re: The Merchant Exchange? Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Ouro_827 I could test this out at home, but I was trying to make up a decent little run-through of all the SPs.... I was wondering, does the Merchant Exchange let you exceed 2 energy before restriction techs or not? If you have a river or something, that's giving you two energy before building, it isn't a resource, and you haven't lifted energy restricitons, will you get 2 or 3 out of it, if you built the Exchange in the base using that square?

Nope. Energy restrictions till apply as normal. Exceptions being the ones that always existed an energy special or the base square.

quote: Also, does it increase energy yields for monoliths and forests?

Yep. For the monoltih you of course will not see the effect until after restriction lifting. For forest is will raise the 1-2-1 to 1-2-2 effective immediately.

	27-04-2004 00:08									#3
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that's why I never build it .

	27-04-2004 07:12									#4
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I build it because I build all the wonders, but were I playing MP I would ignore this project. Very bad cost/benefit ratio.

	27-04-2004 07:59									#5
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The Merchant Exchange is still subject to the energy caps. Usually your minerals are better spent on other stuff. I've seen the Gaians build it though, with the explanation that they needed every joule they could get since they couldn't run Free Market. I guess I can sort of buy that, but normally, just pass on this one.

It also makes a nice placehold if you want to get a head start on a project before you get the necessary tech.

	27-04-2004 10:21									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns .... were I playing MP I would ignore this project. Very bad cost/benefit ratio.

Not at all. The bonus of 1 extra energy per square that this gives applies as well to all worked squares for that base, not just inside it's base radius.

So if it's the foundation for your super science city, with 30 or 40 crawlers working to trundle energy in, that's an awesome amoung of extra energy esp. when multiplied by all the research-enhancing SP's

And to avoid losing to inefficiency, build it in your HQ

It's almost a must for Morgan

G.

	27-04-2004 11:01									#7
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yeah but you can't get all of them. I usually have to sacrifice some, and this is one of them.

	27-04-2004 12:09									#8
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Suppose you have the ME in a SSC with 40 crawlers. Assume, generously, the SSC itself is working 15 tiles (base + 14 population). This means the ME is contributing 55 energy. With a reasonable (land) energy park, the average tile should be contributing at least 6 energy (7 with the ME), between echelon mirrors, elevation, and +2 econ. Therefore, the ME at this point is worth 9 worked tiles.

Each worked tile costs a crawler and, on average, 12 units of former time (6 for a solar panel, or 16 for an echelon mirror, and half of each, plus a road on each tile). Therefore, the ME, which costs 6 + 2/3 crawlers in the early game, is worth, at most, 9 crawlers + 108 units of former time + 9 tiles of land in the mid game (assuming 40 crawlers with the ME). Is this a reasonable return on investment?

For what it's worth, an optimal energy park would return an average of 4 (high elevation) + 3 (average echelon mirror bonus) + 1 (+2 econ) + 1 (rivers on the whole thing) + 1 (ME) = 10 energy/tile, plus any energy bonuses.

	27-04-2004 16:13									#9
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One advantage of the ME combined with FM before lifting restrictions, is that the two give +2 energy per tile. So you can get the maximum energy from any tile - even unimproved ones.

So?

So you crawl empty tiles for 2 energy, which is worth more early game than 10 ec is in the mid game.

-Jam

	27-04-2004 21:26									#10
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Well yeah, that's pretty much what I was going to come up with.... Most players forest their lands early, unless you're tryhing to see what you can do using normal improvements, or you're a native faction living off fungus..... Let's say you build it in base size 5, with 3 energy crawlers working from it.... you got lucky and picked it up as a bonus. Now, you're making 9 energy more a turn. If you wanted to rush in... say a terraformer for 20 credits, that would be about 2 turns from that base. So you're gaining what's normally called the turn advatage. 9 energy. Every turn. With a promise to grow. Let's say you build more crawlers and the base gets bigger. Now you lift restrictions. Now, in a size 9 base, with 6 energy crawlers, you are making 17 energy a turn, which is almost enough to buy a terraformer every turn. That is what is termed 'turn advantage' by ceritain parties.

	28-04-2004 04:51									#11
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The Merchant Exchange, even if it gives a decent rate of return in the early game, has its cost. You could have another of the 20 row projects, or extra formers or crawlers in the early game. To convince me it's a good deal you need to show it gives a better return than other common early game investments, such as the WP, formers, or more bases.

	28-04-2004 12:13									#12
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Actually nothing has such a good return as more bases, CT, but on a strictly energy-->minerals basis, it can take 40 or more turns for the ME to "pay back" its construction costs. Compare with a crawler that can pay back its costs in no more than 10 turns (normally much less) or a former, average of about 12 turns.

So yes, the ME takes a bit longer to turn a profit, but the question is : is it worth building it now, to use later before someone else gets it?

I ALWAYS try to grab it in the city that will get the Supercollider and/or ToE, and then it is very much worth the 20 rows.

Think of the future!

-Jam

	28-04-2004 21:45									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Actually nothing has such a good return as more bases

And the ME is nowhere near as good as the WP/HGP/VW but that is not in question. Just whether or not the ME is worth building at all.

quote: Originally posted by Jamski I ALWAYS try to grab it in the city that will get the Supercollider and/or ToE, and then it is very much worth the 20 rows. Think of the future!

Agreed. This is exactly what I do. Not only does it give you +1 energy per base square per turn, but more importantly it also gives +1 to every crawler from that base. That can easily be +20 energy per turn just from crawlers alone. Plus +10 or so from the base squares. 30 energy per turn extra. So what is it 2 ec per min? 4ec per min? So the payback comes in 13 or 26 turns? Everything after that is gravy.

Are my numbers right? Can someone confirm this?

edit: whoops, I just repeated what Googlie already said about this. forgot where this thread had already gone.

	28-04-2004 22:04									#14
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Livid,

I beleive the +10 from base squares is questionable. The only base square to benefit from ME would be the base that has the ME.

	28-04-2004 22:19									#15
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If you are working 10 squares then you will be getting +10. This of course assumes that restrictions are lifted, but by the time you are working 10 tiles that should be true.

And the question is whether this is worth building in an MP game, or whether other stuff such as other projects are better. In SP, every project is worth building, even useless ones. Why not?

	28-04-2004 22:30									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Livid, I beleive the +10 from base squares is questionable. The only base square to benefit from ME would be the base that has the ME.

I did not mean to insinuate that number was per base. I was refering to the 10 worked squares a base would typically have by mid game. (Morgan=11 max pop - 1 psyche specialist.)

	29-04-2004 02:11									#17
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You mean worked tiles.

As for being worse than the WP, HGP etc... I don't cry if I miss them either.

I realised recently that the early game SPs are VERY nice, but... in an MP game you can't count on them, and in fact you can gain the advantage by assuming you WON'T get them, and building 10ish more bases instead. Its better than trying to tie up production pre IA, or "burning" crawlers post IA.

-Jam

	29-04-2004 02:52									#18
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Would you spent AA's prior to having IA on SP's, Jam?
And why can't you count on them in a MP? Granted that those mostly don't take 200 turns, but still usefull to have then I guess?

	29-04-2004 03:47									#19
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Jamski, so you'll be cancelling that project then.......

*giggle*

Hey I'm far from asleep.

	29-04-2004 05:35									#20
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In multiplayer, I don't count on any particular SP unless I'm confident I can get it, and that's rare. Instead, I count on getting some useful SP, and when I'm ready to get one in a single turn (from some combination of stored production in a random SP, crawlers, artifacts, the crawler upgrade exploit, disbanded units, and purchased minerals), I pick the best available and take it (assuming an even better one isn't just a few turns away from being available). This is usually the WP or the HGP, but can be the PTS or VW.

	29-04-2004 06:54									#21
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A clarification...The Merchant's +1 energy bonus applies to tiles crawled/trawled to the base with the SP, as wel as those actually worked by the base's pop.

Also, as I recall, the benefit does NOT apply to worked Fungus tiles.

	29-04-2004 23:22									#22
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Yea it works with crawlers, which is really nice.

	29-04-2004 23:30									#23
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quote: Jamski, so you'll be cancelling that project then....... *giggle* Hey I'm far from asleep.

Hey - I replied to this before... where's my post gone?

You know what I'm up to John

-Jam

	01-05-2004 13:33									#24
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Since there is that competitiveness in going after SPs in PBEMs, and quite a lot of uncertainty about what your opponents can or can't do before there is infiltration, I don't much like starting early SPs (that I can't finish right away) unless there is a fallback SP available or imminently available on which to spend the big stockpile without wasting most of it. Sometimes I end up with the Command Nexus that way, but hey, having the CN makes you a lot more flexible about where you want to build those military units (and the rapid healing effect at all your bases isn't so bad either).

	01-05-2004 17:59									#25
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quote: Hey - I replied to this before... where's my post gone? You know what I'm up to John -Jam

Well actually I suspect that's not the real reason. I actually give you far more credit than that.

Mongoose wrote a comment on morgan (or maybe I got that information in email) a while ago about saving up minerals for the first few turns until biogenetics was obtained and hence recycling tanks can be built. This is because making several scout patrols early on isn't quite as beneficial for Morgan with the reduced support rating. Also making colony pods isn't as useful with the -1 growth rating forcing you to lose minerals.

In reality I figured you're just saving up minerals until biogenetics comes along. That's something I was considering doing in that Humcad, but Googlie gave us several special bonuses so colony pods were fine as a first build. I assume that in the recent game that's not the case, as from what I saw the starting terrian seems more like random map terran and not the accelerated starting bonus terran that I seen before.

	01-05-2004 21:29									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Kody ... Also making colony pods isn't as useful with the -1 growth rating forcing you to lose minerals.

I don't understand this. A GROWTH penalty doesn't force one to lose minerals, a SUPPORT penalty does. Morgan doesn't have a GROWTH penalty, he has a SUPPORT penalty and a habitation penalty.

	01-05-2004 22:36									#27
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Kody, I saw that post about Morgan starting The Merchant Exchange SP in his 1st 2 bases while researching Biogenetics ASAP. I thought the idea of switcing to recycling tanks in those 2 bases (even at the cost of a few minerals when you switch) was elegant.

	02-05-2004 03:23									#28
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quote: I don't understand this. A GROWTH penalty doesn't force one to lose minerals, a SUPPORT penalty does. Morgan doesn't have a GROWTH penalty, he has a SUPPORT penalty and a habitation penalty.

Umm I've got my facts confused, thinking the size restrictions of the bases equalled a growth penalty. I get my facts wrong now and again. But what I originally meant by that comment was that the growth of the base often doesn't warrant building a colony pod first up.

quote: Kody, I saw that post about Morgan starting The Merchant Exchange SP in his 1st 2 bases while researching Biogenetics ASAP. I thought the idea of switcing to recycling tanks in those 2 bases (even at the cost of a few minerals when you switch) was elegant.

Yeah when I thought about it was elegant, not my idea though.... Looks two posts up and grins.

	07-05-2004 03:25									#29
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I guess I can weigh in on this. The ME looks deceptively poor, but after actually building it one begins to see its advantages.

The Merchant Exchange, pre-restriction, allows you to get 2 energy from forest WITHOUT running Market, which means you can troll fungus and pop boom and use police all while your best city still gets "Market-lite".

Golden Age / Wealth does the same for most factions.

Factions benefitting most from ME in my experience are UoP, because it's tough to get Golden Ages, and economy- and efficiency-challenged factions for whom ME will represent a significant share of income.

Morgan is, in my opinion, the least able to take advantage of ME: his advantages spread the wealth to all his bases, so he leverages those advantages by expanding early rather than building the ME. Meanwhile Morgan's penalty, lower max base size, limits the effectiveness of putting all the eggs (err, oranges) in one basket.

	07-05-2004 09:15									#30
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Best faction to get ME: Yang.

Let's face it, your energy intake with Yang is horrible, and will be, at best, mediocre. ME gives you one solid tech capital to lead your research charge.

Second Best: Deedee

Again, mediocre energy intake with no easy way to get to +2 Economy.