27-04-2004 02:44									#1
	Rank the traits: Commercial Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hi all. Long time reader, 1st time poster.
I was curious how everyone would "rank" the traits.
This time: Commercial

On a scale of 0-5, 0 being totally worthless and 5 being the best, how would everyone rank the Com. trait?

Update

Commercial averaged 3.243 after 37 votes.
5th highest ranked.

Chart coming soon.

Last edited by kobo1d on 04-05-2004 at 19:04

	27-04-2004 03:31									#2
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I would put this at 4.5 as I feel Ag is all alone at 5, but was forced to vote 5. The corruption and increased OCN is very useful.

	27-04-2004 06:13									#3
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updated stats

	27-04-2004 07:54									#4
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I would put this at 4.5 as I feel Ag is all alone at 5, but was forced to vote 5. The corruption and increased OCN is very useful.

To put this anywhere near the level of AGR is silly.

AGR is effective from the very beginning. COM, while powerful in its own right, doesn't show its true colors until a great deal into the game. When playing against humans early advantages are the name of the game, and COM just doesn't cut it.

	27-04-2004 11:07									#5
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Yes MP is another thing in most games and I ignore in this poll.

	27-04-2004 12:56									#6
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Against the AI you could have no traits and still win easily.

	27-04-2004 13:01									#7
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The second trait I LOVE. You win a game with money, not military units.
Combine it with industrious and now you know why I love the French so much (as a civ, that is...)

	27-04-2004 15:41									#8
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One of the better traits IMHO, but the advantages are more subtle and are easily overlooked - you just think you've done a good job setting up your empire when are doing better relative to the AI.

	27-04-2004 17:50									#9
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4. I love commercial. It might "really" be a 3, but I like it so much my judgement may be clouded on this one.

-Arrian

	27-04-2004 21:43									#10
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The Alphabet for an early trading and research head start is one of the strongest advantages any trait gives. Curraghs (even if they are just the slow ones) give quick contacts. Then the OCN bonus kicks in and is probably the best mid-late game bonus.

The only thing bad about Commercial is that Seafaring does pretty much the same thing more efficiently early on.

	28-04-2004 05:30									#11
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updated stats

	28-04-2004 13:22									#12
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This one's only running fifth? I think people are undervaluing the difference this one can make...

	28-04-2004 20:37									#13
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I guess if you play on std or smaller maps and if you go for SS or UN type wins, commerce is not all that important of a trait.

IOW if you will not have lots of cities, you do not need an increased OCN.

	29-04-2004 00:39									#14
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To my perception, Commercial is like getting another Forbidden Palace. Everything is just a bit more productive. More money, more shields, more stuff in your empire, what's not to love? A subtle but significant trait that especially helps large empires.

Voted 4.

	29-04-2004 05:53									#15
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Seriously depends on the level.
On Sid this is #1 trait, because starting off with Alphabet is absolutely essential. Also, corruption is a killer on Sid and commercial trait helps relatively more in this department on higher levels.
Below Sid it is a mediocre trait at best, #5-#7. It is impossible to get a precise ranking since utility of most traits is very much map-dependent.

	29-04-2004 06:02									#16
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Against human players COM isn't all that much of a boon. COM is a trait about long-term advantages, and games against other humans are often decided early, before the advantages of COM start to stack up.

	29-04-2004 11:38									#17
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I agree that most traits have to be valued on the basis of the map and game settings. Map size and levels and MP or SP and how do you want to win are all going to change the rating.

	29-04-2004 14:39									#18
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Com is a bit strange. It won't help you that much to get an early lead, expand fast etc, but it works all the time. As opposed to the other traits which need certain circumstances to work. (you need wars to benfit from mil. , revolutions to benefit from rel. etc)

	30-04-2004 02:32									#19
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4 - fights corruption. I hate ALL corruption. ALWAYS

(that simple )

	30-04-2004 02:37									#20
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You should meet alexman, cerby. You would make great friends.

3 - I play a long term builder game, but I don't find it that useful. I need a fast REX to get all the land I need, and this does not help in that situation

	30-04-2004 02:48									#21
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The name rings bells

For me, it's as much an act of psychology as practical gain. Although, at the same time - small changes imperceiveable at first might have big repercussions later. I should probably add I like the big games and big empires

	30-04-2004 06:34									#22
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updated stats
commercial rose 1 spot

	01-05-2004 13:18									#23
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4. Commercial was my favorite trait once they fixed the bugs with it (took them awhile...) in stock Civ3 and has remained one of my favorites ever since. Once you HAVE an empire, the corruption reduction makes an absolutely ENORMOUS impact, especially over time.

However, commercial has more impact in the early stages of the game than I think many give it credit... in the early stages of the game when you are frequently running up against massive corruption even in relatively close cities (at least on standard to tiny maps), that corruption reduction bonus can be a major boon...

Personally, I find that the point at which commercial shines best is the late ancient and early Middle age period. When you've built up city pop in core cities to 7 (gaining the +1 trade bonus) and even your secondary cities are benefiting from the corruptoin reduction of this trait, it can be incredibly powerful.

Admitedly, the increase in unit upgrade costs with C3C made this trait less powerful because that boost in income during that period of the game was much of what made the trait so powerful... you used that extra income to upgrade more troops rather than having to build the more expensive versions from scratch. That said, it's still a very powerful trait during that period of the game, if for no other reason than that research during that period is VERY difficult unless you're running under Republic or Monarchy with the commercial trait (though the scientific trait is good for this, the commercial trait will benefit you in more different ways).

Frankly, I find that this is an underrated trait for MP play, especially. Not all MP games are decided in the first 50 turns, afterall. Many take well more than 100 turns to be decided and this trait will give a rather sizable benefit over such a period.

	01-05-2004 22:07									#24
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Commercial is the absolute worst trait in the game. Period.

Sure it has its advantages, but I would always rather have any other trait.

	02-05-2004 01:24									#25
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A nice solid 3 traight. Less distance corruption, so helps out with corruption especally in the FP centric region.

Also +2 commerce for every city that reaches size 7. For a Republic for of govt this really makes the difference between a size 6 or size 7 huge!

(+2 in the city, +2 in the extra worked road tile, -4 unit support costs, and that's without considering the other structures present)

	02-05-2004 04:05									#26
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quote: Originally posted by MotownDennis Commercial is the absolute worst trait in the game. Period. Sure it has its advantages, but I would always rather have any other trait.

This opinion must be primarily influenced by consistently playing on tiny maps in games that rarely make it beyond 50 turns. In my experience, playing what MP games I do primarily on standard maps with 8 players and games lasting well beyond 100 turns, the commercial trait can be very very powerful.

	02-05-2004 04:11									#27
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And even on those, expansionist can't be much cop...
i really do not see where that could come from, but I'm sure someone will fill me in

	02-05-2004 04:58									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos This opinion must be primarily influenced by consistently playing on tiny maps in games that rarely make it beyond 50 turns. In my experience, playing what MP games I do primarily on standard maps with 8 players and games lasting well beyond 100 turns, the commercial trait can be very very powerful.

LOL Arnelos. You know I'm a MP guy so you throw this barb at me? I don't think I've played a 50 turn, tiny map game in my life, to be honest.

Anyway, you're right, commercial is terrible in MP (IMO). I was actually approaching this question from a SP perspective though (where I'm a demigod level player).

I guess you need a more detailed explanation as to why I feel that the commercial trait is "the worst trait". Note the way I referred to it - "the worst trait". This does not mean that it is useless. This simply means that any other trait is better.

By the time the commercial trait starts paying off, the game is already over; it's already been won or lost. The other traits are what get you to that point. The other traits are useful in the early game where you really need them to counteract the huge advantages the AI gets at harder levels.

If you have a huge empire in a republic government and have tech parity or better with the AI, you aren't going to lose, are you? The commercial trait is overkill.