27-04-2004 02:45									#1
	Rank the traits: Industrious Increase the size of your Attachments

Hi all. Long time reader, 1st time poster.
I was curious how everyone would "rank" the traits.
This time: Industrious

On a scale of 0-5, 0 being totally worthless and 5 being the best, how would everyone rank the Ind. trait?

Update

Industrious averaged 3.8 after 40 votes.
2nd highest ranked.

chart coming soon

Last edited by kobo1d on 04-05-2004 at 19:11

	27-04-2004 03:29									#2
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Oh how this one has fallen in C3C. I voted 3.

	27-04-2004 03:32									#3
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It's still good: the early roads help get you that little extra gold, and the movement bonus helps if you go for the archer rush.

Personally, I find it difficult to play (for fun) without this trait. My favourite civs are Carthage and Maya.

	27-04-2004 04:29									#4
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It's fallen since PTW, but is still very useful. I'd rank it a 4; only reason I don't pick 5 is that's Ag, and nothing can approach Ag.

	27-04-2004 05:49									#5
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There just is no logical way to put Ind on par with Commerce. A 25% boost in worker speed is not that useful. Make 25% more workers if it is so important.

Krill archer rushes are out in my games, they will not work and I won't have archers for a long time anyway.

	27-04-2004 06:15									#6
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	27-04-2004 07:40									#7
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 There just is no logical way to put Ind on par with Commerce. A 25% boost in worker speed is not that useful. Make 25% more workers if it is so important.

It's 33%, and I beg to differ.

	27-04-2004 11:31									#8
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quote: There just is no logical way to put Ind on par with Commerce. A 25% boost in worker speed is not that useful. Make 25% more workers if it is so important.

but if you are in republic, that eats away at your gpt revenue, since you will be above the unit support limit. The bonuses kind of equal out, especially on my games.

but do not forget the rapid RR'ing.

	27-04-2004 12:57									#9
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I just LOVE this trait (well, maybe except on extreme archipelago). Less workers = less gpt or, better, the same amount of workers is much more productive.

And the best way of rexxing (except on a 3-tiles island, of course) is to have a worker putting down a road ahead of the settlers.

	27-04-2004 15:36									#10
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Still one of the best traits, and still lets you get those early tile improvements finished more quickly which can put you a few turns ahead of the competition in the critical early stages.

	27-04-2004 17:58									#11
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Haven't voted yet. I'm torn between 2 and 3.

It's taken a HUGE hit from PTW. The boost is actually 50%. But that's down from 100%, and there is also the change made w/respect to slaves. Industrious civs used to get slaves that worked at the rate of non-industrious workers. In Conquests, all slaves work at 1/2 the speed of non-industrious workers, no matter which civ controls them.

Road building: 2 turns, instead of 3.
Irrigation: 3 instead of 4.
Chopping: 3 instead of 4.
Mining flat land: 4 instead of 6.

The changing in forest chop time is big, IMO. When the chocie was between 10 turns for 10 shields and 5 turns for 10 shields, it actually made a difference whether I was industrious or not. As an industrious civ, I could chop-assist an early granary. As a non-industrious civ, that rarely made much sense (better to improve other tiles). Now it just doesn't matter much.

I'll give it a 3.

-Arrian

	28-04-2004 05:37									#12
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	28-04-2004 07:11									#13
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3 for me. As mentioned, weakened in C3C. Also, the 'advantage' can be obtained by using democracy or facism (even though I can only imagine the power of an industrius civ on facism during the rail road era :P)

And I'll have to agree with vmxa1, if you're having problems keeping up with tile-improvement, build more workers!

	29-04-2004 01:35									#14
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I don't care if they reduced this trait in Conquests. I like it. The main reason is that if I don't have it, then it feels like all my workers work like they were stuck in tarpits or something. I swear that even the animation is slower. (Well, maybe not) I want each worker to have in mind the goal of turning my empire into one big urban sprawl, and to work harder because of the challenge of that goal. An interesting thing is that since captured workers do not get the trait bonus, it ends up requiring an investment in gpt in order take advantage of the Industrious trait. The bigger the investment, the more advantage you get.

Voted 4

	30-04-2004 03:08									#15
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3. It's another one of the 'quiet traits' that works in the background for me, plus it almost always has at least some use. Would be 4, but I hear it took a serious power-hit. Still, I'd count it lucky if I had it in my random civ's picks. And it's associated wonders make it handy should UU fail me

Should be 3.5, really...having said that...

	30-04-2004 06:39									#16
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very little change for industrious

	01-05-2004 13:01									#17
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4/5, even under C3C rules. So much is made of the drop from the 100% efficiency bonus and the difference in slave worker speeds that I think a lot of people lose sight of just how powerful this trait still is. Perhaps my perspective on the trait is biased by playng a lot of cramped PBEM games over the past several months where that extra worker efficiency makes all of the difference in the world, but this is one hell of a powerful trait.

2 turns on a road rather than 3, 3 turns on a forest chop rather than 4, 4 turns on a mine rather than 6... these may not seem like much, but boy do they add up over time. That little bit of extra production early on from the mines finished faster and forest chopped faster will give you that granary sooner... which will give you your first settler and your next workers sooner... and so on.

It must be remembered that even tiny bonuses very early in the game can be compounded over time into enormous advantages later on.

Frankly, especially for tight PBEM games, I'm convinced that industrious has become, in C3C, one of if not the most underrated trait.

	02-05-2004 00:42									#18
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3-4 c3c, if it was ptw defintely 5.

	02-05-2004 01:05									#19
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Fallen from over the top 5 down to a solid 4.

While it's not nearly as important for choping forests, the lack of it is very noticable when needing to clear jungles and railroad everywhere.

	02-05-2004 09:03									#20
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I agree with Arnelos....very underrated. The comments about less workers required for the same amount of work (and hence lower support costs) or just building more workers are of course valid, but miss the main point.

The most important thing in this game is pop growth, and pacing that growth with tile improvements. And the most important time for this is the early game, when you have few cities and it hurts to divert build queues to the production of workers. Not so much because it prevents you from building other goodies, but because it puts your growth on hold (short of a food-rich worker pump, which you're probably not going to have ultra early).

Having faster workers means having to build less of them, which means pop growth is faster....and growth is power.

	03-05-2004 01:33									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Aqualung71 I agree with Arnelos....very underrated. The comments about less workers required for the same amount of work (and hence lower support costs) or just building more workers are of course valid, but miss the main point. The most important thing in this game is pop growth, and pacing that growth with tile improvements. And the most important time for this is the early game, when you have few cities and it hurts to divert build queues to the production of workers. Not so much because it prevents you from building other goodies, but because it puts your growth on hold (short of a food-rich worker pump, which you're probably not going to have ultra early). Having faster workers means having to build less of them, which means pop growth is faster....and growth is power.

Bingo. You stated what I was trying to get at about early tile improvements, but made the case better.

	03-05-2004 04:40									#22
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The changes made this trait less desirable - and I liked this trait, a lot. Still, I think the mods were necessary for game balance. And is still a 4.

	03-05-2004 07:29									#23
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I'm with many of the others. I voted 4 ( 5 pre Conquests - 3 with Conquests).