27-04-2004 02:46									#1
	Rank the traits: Expansionist Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Hi all. Long time reader, 1st time poster.
I was curious how everyone would "rank" the traits.
This time: Expansionist

On a scale of 0-5, 0 being totally worthless and 5 being the best, how would everyone rank the Exp. trait?


Update

Expansionist averaged 2.222 after 36 votes.
Ranked last, 8th place.

Chart coming soon.

Last edited by kobo1d on 04-05-2004 at 19:02

	27-04-2004 03:15									#2
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Expansionist is completely map dependant. The larger the map, the lesser the ocean percentage, the fewer the number of civs relative to the map, and the further away the continents setting is from archipelago, the better it will be.

	27-04-2004 03:19									#3
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I never like exp trait and it is totally worthless at the highest levels. It can be used in large maps on PTW at emperor level to just crush the AI by popping lots of huts.

You don't need it though and above that level the huts are not your friends.

	27-04-2004 05:56									#4
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updated stats

	27-04-2004 11:08									#5
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You may want to hold off on those updates till you get a few more votes.

	27-04-2004 11:28									#6
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Exp is one of the most underrated traits in the game.

Need tech? Pop a hut.

Want to rex? Pop a hut.

Need money? Pop a hut.

Need units? Pop a hut.

When playing an expansionist civ, I usually end up with a massive tech lead very early. I also almost always get a settler very early. A free city and a tech lead? Plus a couple of extra units and some money? Come on! Game over mid way through the Ancient Age! (Play on Monarch/Regent with random STANDARD maps)

Additionally, expansionist civs are one of the most dangerous civs for the AI to be, but they aren't played correctly by the computer. They start out with a single Scout which the AI sends out to pop huts and well.. to Scout. It will pop techs and settlers just like a humans would. It will help the AI keep up with a quick human tech rate. If you see one... Kill it. Do it as soon as you can. The AI will not build another one and it will loose out on 50% of its trait advantages. You can sue for peace later on. Usually after 5 turns, if you still have an "Average" military, they will make peace without compensation. If they are strong, then they will demand something from you. Go ahead and give them a tech. So what? You should be so far ahead of them at this point that it wouldn't matter anyway. Plus, giving them that one tech FAR out weighs the benifits that it would have gained through continued exploring and hut popping.

However, I did not have the courage to rank it a 5 as that should be held exclusivly for Ag.

	27-04-2004 12:58									#7
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As usual, 0 on archipelago, 5 on pangea, gargantuan, 35 civs. Since I play mostly on archipelago...

	27-04-2004 13:00									#8
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I gave it a 3, since the potential advantages are quite good as Done mentions, however it's highly map and luck dependent... some games I've gotten 1 tech and some gold and that was IT.

	27-04-2004 15:39									#9
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It is very map dependent, but I've had too many games where there just weren't that many huts I could get to first, and I've come away with very little.

	27-04-2004 18:07									#10
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Hmm, 2 or 3?

It can be huge, if you get a settler and a couple of techs. Or it can be nearly useless, if you get a couple of conscript warriors and a little gold. Plus, the exploration edge is reduced due to the ability of all civs to build curraghs, which can map out the coasts pretty fast.

I dunno. I play standard maps/monarch, and it just doesn't do much for me. I play it occasionally, and am usually less than thrilled.

I'm going with a 2. Maybe Aeson will come along and explain one more time why most of us are wrong about this one

-Arrian

	27-04-2004 22:16									#11
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10 shield 2 movement units that can pillage... available from day one, with a free one to start.

Iroquois being moved to Comm/Ag makes it a less attractive trait overall though. Same with map trading being moved back and the Ag combo going to an expensive Scout unable to stay in AI territory while at peace. Chasqui are very good at laying waste to an AI still, and in some situations are probably the strongest UU out there. Too variable though. Usually would rather have a cheaper Jag or a non-military Scout.

Still a solid 4 vs the AI on average settings without relying on hut bonuses... if you don't mind exploiting every little flaw in the AI.

	28-04-2004 05:35									#12
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	28-04-2004 13:42									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson 10 shield 2 movement units that can pillage... available from day one, with a free one to start.

on archiplago, all alone on your island?

	28-04-2004 14:00									#14
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how dare you question AESON!!!!!

	28-04-2004 17:57									#15
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At least you have an extra tech towards Map Making if you're all alone, and will know your situation ASAP. Otherwise you might spend extra time building up to an Archer rush, building a Granary for a strong Rex on a small island, researching something other than straight to Map Making, ect.

Then when you're ready to invade, drop off a Scout or two in the target's territory, find their Iron, Horses, and/or important roads, pillage them the first turn of the war, and pull their units away from your landing site.

It's obviously not going to be as useful a trait under those conditions, but hardly useless.

	29-04-2004 01:00									#16
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This trait just does not work for me. My scouts find barbs before they encounter huts. My warriors get minimum good things from the huts. Even if I do get a tech lead, the other civs give me awful trade offers. The bonus for the trait goes away sometime during the Ancient Age. (This is the opposite of Commercial which starts out weak and gets stronger later.) If I work at it, I can get a tech lead without an Expansionist trait and then enjoy whatever benefits come from the other trait I got instead.)

Voted 2.

	30-04-2004 03:21									#17
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1.
Pop a hut. Very good, I'm sure. Except there just AREN'T ENOUGH!!! (even on large/pangaea maps)
I have seen it get me a good ancient lead, but it's the exception more than the rule. And it may retain it's power on higher levels, but it's not enough power to start with. It may have pillaging potential, but I've never looked into it. Why? The signature says all (should I ever change it...it says everything's mine by default )
And you wouldn't pillage your own land. Actually, in the crazy world of poly you probably would, and somehow win the game by it too by fooling the AI with a strange done-tile/worker ratio or something odd like that
Plus, the standard scout needs def for me to like it

I consider finding this trait bad news, but I will at least make the most of the scout on a hut grab :P - shame the neighbour AI's tend to have it too...

It may have some super power within, but I have yet to see it personally.

Edit: oh, expansionist features well in late wonders. So 1.5 really - I like 'UU insurance'

	30-04-2004 06:42									#18
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updated stats
over the past two days expansionist has not changed even .001 in either direction

	01-05-2004 13:28									#19
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This is a very hit-or-miss trait. I've played games where it was a godsend and games where it was nearly 100% worthless, both in MP and in SP. Scouts are awesome... but are they REALLY worth giving up a better trait like agricultural, industrious, or commercial?

I guess I'll vote 2, because despite how useful this trait has been at times (Arrakis PBEM despite not ever popping a settler with it, a few other cases), it's been unforgivably mean to me in others... such as ISDG FAM PBEM #4... I was given the Russians and the randomized barb setting ended up being none... NO GOODY HUTS! Now that was an extreme case, I'll grant, but it's utility is far too dependent upon luck and my luck is far too often pretty poor.

	02-05-2004 00:33									#20
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very good trait to have in mp imo

	02-05-2004 01:31									#21
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A three, but on the low side of 3.

It's not so much the extra goody huts you'll get to (maybe one), but the NO BARBS poping from any of them. Without barbs in the equation, the realtive probability of getting all of the goodies is that much higher. On average, 1/2 more free settler per game could be anticipated playing a Expansionist civ along with between one and two more free techs.

A non-obvious benifit is also the ability to build a Granery from turn 1.

Note that it's value would drop down to 0 for anyone who saves the game every time before poping a goody hut and reloads when they get barbs and delays the poping til the next turn.

	02-05-2004 04:03									#22
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn A non-obvious benifit is also the ability to build a Granery from turn 1.

When Pottery only costs 48 beakers on a standard map and it's not even prudent to build your first granary until you've popped out 1-3 warriors anyhow (in most situations), reseraching Pottery first mostly negates the utility of this part of the Expansionist trait.

Frankly, expansionist's only real use is SCOUTS, both for hut popping and for pillaging/exploring (pillaging just as much as exploring, actually...).