27-04-2004 02:49									#1
	Rank the Traits: Scientific Inflate your Upload Space

Hi all. Long time reader, 1st time poster.
I was curious how everyone would "rank" the traits.
This time: Scientific

On a scale of 0-5, 0 being totally worthless and 5 being the best, how would everyone rank the Sci. trait?

Update

Scientific averaged 2.972 after 36 votes.
6th highest ranked.

Chart coming soon.

Last edited by kobo1d on 04-05-2004 at 19:06

	27-04-2004 03:27									#2
	Got spare money?

I choose 4, but probably should not have voted on this one. I just don't use it much.

	27-04-2004 03:30									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

It's a good trait, and the advantage over commercial is that you get the tech first, sell it, and re-invest the money, other than getting the money in "Installments" in Commercial, so you don't get a tech lead.

	27-04-2004 06:10									#4
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

updated stats

	27-04-2004 11:50									#5
	Put an end to popups!

I would call this a secondary trait, but very powerful in combination with anything except Expansionist and Militarist (and great with Religious if playing for a culture win....Babylon!).

Last edited by Aqualung71 on 02-05-2004 at 08:24

	27-04-2004 12:49									#6
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I gave a 0 (I'm in a bad mood today, I know).
If you need that free tech every age that desperately, then you're in deep trouble anyway.
Getting techs is not only just research, it's mainly the cleverness of trading them....

	27-04-2004 13:03									#7
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I gave this tech a 2. It's simply quite poor IMO. Its culture potential is highly limited, as Literature comes a LONG time after Ceremonial Burial (giving REL the advantage here). The extra chance at SGLs is meh... and the free techs are usually not THAT big of a deal (compared with traits like IND and AGR) except in very special cases.

	27-04-2004 14:38									#8
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Would this trait be considered useful if it also gave a % chance of a "Miraculous Discovery!" (ie: a small chance of a scientific breakthrought giving the tech being researched at the time automatically)?

	27-04-2004 15:00									#9
	Got spare money?

I don't think it's a good idea to have traits depend on small % "hit-or-miss" opportunities like SGLs, MGLs and culture flips. I'd prefer a more gradual and less drastic effects than these silver bullet effects that either make-or-break a trait.

Solution? Give a certain % discount on all research for Sci civs instead of some of its other bonuses.

	27-04-2004 15:53									#10
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Looks okay on paper, but isn't that strong in practice. Haven't played enough to get a feel for how well the increased SGL chances benefit the trait, but a rough analysis suggests that on average you are looking at one extra SGL in the late middle ages or early industrial, which isn't that big a deal. Rather too random. Bad luck with SGLs and random techs leaves you with very little of value.

	27-04-2004 17:53									#11
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

3. I like it, but I like others more.

The 1/2 cost libraries & unis are definitely nice, as are the free techs per era & the boost to SGL generation.

Obviously, however, if you don't get the tech lead until late in the game (playing at a high level), then a higher percentage chance of getting SGLs doesn't do much for you, does it?

-Arrian

	28-04-2004 05:44									#12
	Put an end to popups!

updated stats

	28-04-2004 07:06									#13
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

4 for me. I think Sci is an underrated trait. You only have to look at Catt's amazing AAR (somewhere on the must read thread) to see how being able to crank out cheap universities can land you a game in the long term.

The increased SGL generation is quite useless. A better solution would be the ability to have a 'turbo' button. Either to instantly create a tech-based wonder (possibly everything except GL, so things like newtons would fit), or have a general improvement in research for short periods like you can do with SGLs(once an era?)

That said, the cultural output bonus from cheap sci buildings are nice too (which makes babylon so ridiculously easy for a tech victory).

	29-04-2004 02:33									#14
	Put an end to popups!

A half priced library is cheaper than a full priced temple. Not only do you get the beginning culture, but you get beakers, too. With the same tactics you would use to gain a tech lead, you can achieve tech domination. The three extra techs are a nice bonus to that, much the same as the two extra techs for Theory of Evolution and the one extra tech for Philosophy. The tech lead turns to a military advantage at some time and then the other civs justifiably tremble in fear. (Well, they tremble until they become too busy being destroyed.) I do think a one beaker per town bonus would be appropriate, but I still like being Scientific. Nothing better than being able to say "Not only am I smarter than you, I am a lot smarter."

Voted 4

	29-04-2004 21:08									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

In my opinion, this is the trait that depends the most on if you are playing SP or MP. It is totally worthless in SP (ime), but in MP where people actually have to research stuff even when they are not a top dog, it is much stronger. The free techs being much more important there as well.

	30-04-2004 02:18									#16
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

2. Having read about how to exploit the free tech on here, it's a lot more powerful than it first seemed to me. And on lower levels, when it's all your own research, the low building cost let you deepen your 'frenzy'
However, higher up it loses it's edge a bit, so I don't see it featuring highly in my bigger games. And like Trip, I don't think much of low %age chance mega-bonuses either :P

	30-04-2004 06:33									#17
	Got spare money?

updated stats
scientific has not changed positions

	01-05-2004 13:07									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Frankly, scientific is a poor trait, even with the SGL boost in C3C. It can be rather useful in some situations, namely if you already have a lead in the game, but it's not the type of trait likely to give you a significant boost toward obtaining a big lead in the game when compared to other more powerful traits.

	02-05-2004 01:12									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Received a boost from the 3 category in Civ III classic into the 4 minus range.

Basically on average you can expect to receive one or two more SGLs over the course of the game playing a Scientific civ than a non Scientific one, and each gives you a free Great Wonder.

In addition, Conquests added a cheap enough Great Wonder that you can actually build on Emperor level without a GL that is Scientific, increasing your ability to get a peaceful Golden Age at the right time.

	02-05-2004 08:31									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Basically on average you can expect to receive one or two more SGLs over the course of the game playing a Scientific civ than a non Scientific one...

Can I borrow your RNG please? I think I've had 4 or 5 SGL's since November - 6 months. And 2 of those were in one game.